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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 2:51:29 PM(UTC)
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Hi All. I came across a 350 for sale. The engine number is V0126DRK19C144705? I was told it came out of a 1970 Camaro? It is still running but will not come with pulleys, starter, extractors/headers etc. Comes with Carby, Manifold, Air Cleaner, Water Pump, High Volume Oil Pump, Flex Plate, Flywheel, Converter, Electronic Dizzy and Harmonic Balancer.
It is still in an old Morris Truck. Asking $3250? Is that a good price for it?
I was thinking of using it in my HG Van as I don't have the original engine anyway. The van is set up as 186 trimatic (on the column) so what box should I use with it to possibly marry up to the column?
Also a mate just picked up an aussie 4 speed (6 Cylinder) at the local markets........ It changes perfectly and came with the (bucket seat) shifter attached. How much is it worth? And how do you tell exactly what model it is from? He paid $80 bucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it even had the clutch kit sitting on the input shaft! Been sitting in the old fella's shed for years.
I could go the other way and use it behind the 186 as I already have bucket seats and a half console. Can you still use the half console with the standard shifter as I am not sure exactly where the stick would come through the floor? I told him I would pay him double to cover the frieght.....
TIA. Ron
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justgm Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 5:19:26 PM(UTC)
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Hi Ron , my information tells me that this is a 1979 350 , 170hp , 8.5:1 . 4 bc engine. Thanks Mark.
life is good in "Wine & Holden Marlborough "
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 6:20:52 PM(UTC)
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As above, 1979 LM1 auto. 350ci 4BBL out of a full size Chevrolet. 8.2:1 though not 8.5. It was 170hp but only 165hp in California. It was net hp though, so will be GM1 test (SAE net) complete with emissions strangled exhaust etc. Basically the same engine as a HQ except with lower compression probably by piston dish or combustion chamber or both. They had 6.27cc combustion chambers. Easily rebuilt with different heads and pistons to be the same spec as what is in a HT-HG 350 manual or if you leave the heads fit flat tops and it'll be like a HT-HG 350 auto in specs.

For the 350 in HG the best bet is a RH shift Trimatic. Will cost about $800 for a bellhousing to suit but everything else is cost savings. I'd use a 308 though, will be easier again than a 350. Just need a bigger diff and tailshaft.

The aussie 4spd is probably worth $100 max. Will probably need another $400 minimum to fix it, they are almost always shagged. Most of the $50 6cyl boxes I ever found at swap meets were M22 as well.
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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 7:33:18 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Mark and Byron. For a low compression engine it goes very well in a 1951 lc3 morris commercial truck. The engine is very clean and runs smooth. Has t350 behind it and a 9 inch out the back. It's on hilux suspension and brakes along with power steer. It drives and handles well. The motor will be out tomorrow and the new engine will be in and up and running by Wednesday.
I pick it up next weekend. It doesn't need a rebuild imho however I would probably do valve guide seals as well as gaskets. The Van will only be a comfortable cruiser, not a hi-powered show car anyway.
How do you tell the difference between M20 M22 etc? I've never had a Holden with an aussie 4 speed. All my past old Holdens have been grey and red 6ers with 3 speed manuals a few hydramatics, powerglides and trimatics thrown in and one VC Commodore.
I found a 3.08 banjo diff head in the dirt next door after a shed fire and clean up. It is totally stuffed. Could it be salvagable with new crown wheel and pinion, spider gears etc? It is missing the yoke too. I have a mate in NZ with a nos 3.08 crown wheel and pinion still in the box.....
Thanks.
Cheers.
Ron
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HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 8:24:13 PM(UTC)
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If it’s a short output shaft TH350 the whole thing will fit in the HG using a HT-HG V8 Powerglide crossmember and HK-HG SBC engine mount adapters and engine mounts. You’ll also need a HK-HG SBC sump, pickup and dipstick. You’ll also need a speedo cable from a HK-HG V8 Powerglide and cut the hole in the firewall for.it. Make sure it’s the right TH350 and you use the right rear mount etc. I’d use some HK-HG 307 Ramshorns too. But your biggest challenge will be the column shift which won’t be easy to do, best bet would be to track down a late HZ TH350 crossover mech but good luck finding one. This is why I suggested a V8 Trimatic. Yes the bellhousing to suit the SBC will be expensive but you’ll pay much more for the sump, crossmember and Ramshorns etc. whereas you already have everything you need already. Just remember the Trimatic will move backwards 3/4” behind a SBC. Your gearbox crossmember slots should take that up though and the column shift setup will need a slight tweak

Forget a banjo behind a 350, waste of money. Use something else. Even left field options like an old Borg Warner out of an XW-XY or a wider Volvo diff.
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Sandaro Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 8:42:41 PM(UTC)
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Hi Ron, just to clarify, to me it sounds like you are just getting the engine. The Morris guy is keeping the box and diff? My question would be why is he selling the engine only if it is good?
Also your mate got a bargain for the Aussie 4 speed and shifter, because a good shifter is worth that much if not a lot more on its own. The box is likely shagged (unless you are an expert it is almost impossible to tell without a test drive) but is still good for a swap over for a reconditioned one.
Also although HK pans the banjo, if it is a 170hp 350, a banjo will handle that fine unless you are a die hard burnout adict (which I gather you are not)

Edited by user Monday, 4 October 2021 8:43:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, 4 October 2021 9:14:31 PM(UTC)
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It will destroy the banjo. It is 170hp SAE net. Which means about 265-270hp gross which is almost the same as a HQ 350. The torque of it will tear a banjo to shreds. A banjo was designed for a HK-HG sized car with a maximum of about 75hp SAE net with a lot less torque. They built a heavier duty nodular iron case for 253 and 307/308 to handle a few more hp but remember those engines had far less torque than a 350, and the mid sized cars fitted with 307/308/auto banjo were always single exhaust which robbed a lot of hp and torque, a HK 307 standard would be lucky to crack 100hp SAE net, a HT-HG 308 maybe 120hp. That L48/LM1 engine exceeded the torque figure in North America for both the Saginaw and 10 bolt in a mid sized vehicle like a HK to HQ. Cars fitted with it were fitted with a Muncie and 12 bolt rear end, which is why a HQ got a Muncie or TH400 behind it.
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Sandaro Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, 6 October 2021 6:38:18 PM(UTC)
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From some real world experience if you can contain the burnouts, drive the car like a normal driver the banjo will take it. If I'm wrong then what is lost? Replace it.
HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, 6 October 2021 7:10:08 PM(UTC)
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True. But to make it legal as in “self-Engineered” fitting an engine that was available in that Series you have to fit the uprated parts that the 350 powered vehicles had. Which technically means a Salisbury and bigger tailshaft and uni joints. Luckily most authorities and Engineers don’t also know about the stronger rear floor in a 350 powered HT-HG!

If you were to fit a banjo you’d have to at least fit a V8 one which is a stronger case and bigger yoke. Plus a custom tailshaft most likely. When the banjo eventually breaks most of that expense is wasted. If the 350 snots the tailshaft before the banjo (remember a 350 powered HT-HG uses 1-tonner unis at both ends) and causes a big accident you might end up in hot water.

If keeping the banjo a 308 and Trimatic is a far better option as that combination was a GMH valid option, but still needs a V8 banjo or at least a 2.78 or 3.08 6cyl one with a V8 yoke fitted
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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 7 October 2021 4:51:21 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for all your input.
I won't be doing any burnouts..... Just cruising with a nice V8 burble out the back is good enough for me. That is if I go with the 350. If I can locate the rest of the parts required I will weigh up the costs involved and go from there.
Is the SBC Sump and oil pick-up on HK HT HG peculiar to HK HT HG only or is it also common in any other GM Vehicles?
The owner with the Morris is only uprating his Truck because he has the funds and wants a bit more out of it. I think he said he is putting a 'Vortex'? engine in. He already has the t350 and a Tru Trac 9 inch. He is not a burnout man either. And he is older than me.
There is another HG Van in town at the moment getting a panel and paint. I was told the owner was looking at dropping a 350 V8 or similar into it. I am not sure but the panel beater told me he thought it was an original V8 Van. I haven't seen it yet. I will catch up with the owner soon as he is looking at putting a rear seat in and I already have a rear seat in mine which is coming out. He can have all the stuff I take out and I might be able to get what he removes to mostly complete my cargo floor.
I know how long a banjo will last with a 350 up front. Not very long at all if you use the loud pedal more than once. The second time will tear it apart if the first doesn't.
Thanks.
Ron
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 7 October 2021 6:35:27 AM(UTC)
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Sump is unique to HK-HG. You can buy aftermarket ones though but they are about $500-600.

You won’t find a Salisbury cheap. But what does work with minimal work is a 68-69 Camaro 10 bolt which is the same diff with different axles and drums. They are very close in width but need the HK-HG spring mounts added and some adapter hand brake cables. It will change the stud pattern to HQ though but that is easily fixed by fitting HQ rotors and calipers to the front. Then running HQ-WB wheels.
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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#12 Posted : Saturday, 23 October 2021 6:06:09 AM(UTC)
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Hi All. I picked up the 350 last weekend. Unfortunately it is missing the harmonic balancer, flywheel, starter, water pump, engine mounts and all of the electronic ignition (no dizzy, coil and leads) as they used all those parts when they put the other engine in. The manifold and carby are still there along with the air cleaner and (wrong for the HG} sump.
I ordered a pair of conversion engine mounts so I can at least sit it on the trolley stand I made up to roll it under the bench.
Which harmonic balancer should I purchase? The last time I looked there were 8" and 7" along with varying degrees of performance standard. It won't be doing high revs.
He replaced the extractors on the morris commercial and left the old ones on the motor. The exit join is around the height of the starter motor and appeared to be a snug fit between the chassis rails and starter motor. Not sure if they would work with the hg sub-frame though. It sounded good in his truck.
Which electronic dizzy set up should I look at?
TIA again.
Cheers,
Ron
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HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Saturday, 23 October 2021 9:46:37 AM(UTC)
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Buy whatever was on the engine originally. If its a cast crank 350 it will be just a neutral balance harmonic balancer. Just buy a standard replacement one.

You most likely want a 10.75" flex plate (153 teeth), so buy the starter to suit. Also called 10.5" on a manual car as that is what the flywheel size is. I assume you are going to run an auto? A manual is a pain in the bum on a HG. I'd still recommend finding a relatively good used V8 Trimatic with RH side shift and getting a bellhousing to suit the 350. Will be your easiest option. You'll have to get the Trimatic rebuilt anyway but getting a good one to start with is always better. Will be some minor stuffing around as the 350 will push it backwards 3/4" but the rear mount is slotted anyway and the column linkages should be able to be modified a little to work.

The sump, pickup and the special mains bolt with the stud to hold the pickup are not cheap. Expect to pay over $600 for a setup.

HK-HG SBC engine mounts bolt straight to the block and use different height adapters between them and the subframe which sit the ending up on a tilt with the driver side higher. With these cars running a SBC the gearbox also sits offset towards the passenger side by about 20mm (which is the opposite way to the tunnel offset which is about 25mm towards the driver side). So if you fit a SBC tilted like GMH did with a Trimatic on its original gearbox crossmember the gearbox will sit centre and not offset. This may not be an issue at all, but if it is you can buy Engineered aftermarket gearbox crossmembers quite cheaply on Ebay. Just get them to make you one to suit a Trimatic in a HT-HG but with the slots offset towards the passenger side as per a SBC powered car. I don't think it'll create any dramas though using the original Trimatic one.

Extractors almost certainly won't fit. Buy a pair of HK 307 exhaust manifolds, they are always on Gumtree reasonably cheaply and are easy to use. As you get older you learn to hate extractor noise!

For the dizzy you can go original, the original HK-HQ 307/327/350 distributors aren't all that expensive used. Or go HEI, cheapies are less than $100 but not sure how good they are - I'd at least buy an MSD brand HEI replacement for about $300 ready to go (coil in cap). Or you can buy a Bosch style (as per VC/WB-VL HEI) replica to suit a SBC that run an external coil. I bought one of these for my HJ Premier and it works pretty well, it is a Goss brand and came with a proper 12V HEI coil - got it from Spark Plugs Direct. Part number for the Bosch style is DCV8N or DCV8NB. Goss also sell a HEI (coil in cap) style too. Goss also sell a 12V HEI coil that looks like an original Holden Bosch coil. If you go HEI you'll have to remove the ignition switch and bridge the START and RUN terminals (pink and yellow wires) on the output of the ignition switch. I just solder a bit of wire right up high on the pins. Gives the HEI coil 12V all the time.

Having said all that I'd still consider selling the 350 and buying a complete 308 and Trimatic. It will be a far cheaper and easier conversion, and you'll get away with keeping the banjo if you can find a 3.08 or 2.78 V8 banjo centre. It'll all bolt straight in using original parts. If you buy a 308 and Trimatic out of a HQ-HZ just make sure its a RH shift Trimatic. All you'll have to buy (apart from hoses, etc) are:

HT-HG 253/308 sump/pickup/dipstick.
HT-HG 253/308 Trimatic/Powerglide/3spd manual tailshaft (YELLOW 56.08") and diff centre.
HT-HG 253/308 radiator.
HT-HG 308 throttle shaft and linkage (don't need a Trimatic one with kickdown if you use a HQ onwards Trimatic) - available repro too.
HT-HG 253/308 alternator bracket setup (also repro around I believe).
HT-HQ 308 auto Quadrajet (easy to find, costs about $360 to completely overhaul). You want one of these so your throttle linkage works correctly.

If your budget is limited maybe buy a good 253 and Trimatic, all fits the same.

The 350 will still work just will cost a fair bit more and require a certain amount of non-standard parts including a stronger diff.

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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 4:49:52 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Byron for your detailed reply.
I was offered a 253 auto at our car club run yesterday along with an M21 but have no idea if the 253 comes with a trimatic or TH350 or what year it is yet. He said it has a holley carb on it and is complete. $1500 for the 253 auto and $400 for the M21. It belongs to a mate of his as they have recently wrecked a couple of one tonners. He said the M21 was behind a 186 and they only drove it around the paddock before pulling it all apart. How do you tell the difference between M20, M21 and M22?
TIA.
Ron
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justgm Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 5:36:54 AM(UTC)
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Hi Ron , 253 was P/G in HT , but from then on was Tri-Matic ( Tri -matic will have a plate on the side to ID what it came out of) ) , no TH350. When i come across a Holden 4 speed , first establish its input shaft length , long for V8 short for 6 . Then I would mark the input and output shafts , select 1st gear and turn the gearbox over by hand , repeat with all gears . This can be done without a shifter , but is more difficult .When you look at the ratios of M20, M21 and M22 you should be able to see which gearbox you are buying. It is unlikely to be a V8 M21 , but you wont know until you check it out . I have seen articles that say groves on the input shaft can ID them , but I don't know if that is true or not. Thanks Mark.
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#16 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 6:01:52 AM(UTC)
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An Aussie 4spd is no good for a HG, won’t fit. If it was behind a 186 it won’t fit a 253 anyway.

253 auto will be a Trimatic if it was from a 1-tonner. Just make sure it is a RH shift Trimatic. $1500 is OK if it is all useable but like anything used you never know especially without seeing it run. If you do buy it there are a few things you can do like check the oil colour in the Trimatic and check the 253 turns over. Grab the radiator with it if you can, not quite the same as HG but it will fit and work. Same with any other hang ons that will save $ like make sure the battery leads are attached etc. Hopefully it still has exhaust manifolds and not extractors

Holley carbs aren’t much good on a 253 but at least it will run, you can change that later.
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#17 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 8:02:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nineteenfortyeight Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Byron for your detailed reply.
I was offered a 253 auto at our car club run yesterday along with an M21 but have no idea if the 253 comes with a trimatic or TH350 or what year it is yet. He said it has a holley carb on it and is complete. $1500 for the 253 auto and $400 for the M21. It belongs to a mate of his as they have recently wrecked a couple of one tonners. He said the M21 was behind a 186 and they only drove it around the paddock before pulling it all apart. How do you tell the difference between M20, M21 and M22?
TIA.
Ron


AFAIK, 253 engines never had T350 trans behind them ...
and
no 6 cyl engine (any size ) had an M21 trans behind it.
M20 (even on XU1) or M22 only (M15 was the 3 speed)

How to tell the diff between M20, M21 and M22?
They all have different 1st gear ratios... so push the box
side lever to select first and then rotate the input shaft
say 10 times and count the number of rotations (or part
rotations) of the output

with an M20, 10 turns of the input shaft will give 3.3 turns
of the output shaft compared to M21 which will give close to 4

Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
Smitty2 Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 1:12:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: justgm Go to Quoted Post
...................... .When you look at the ratios of M20, M21 and M22 you should be able to see which gearbox you are buying. It is unlikely to be a V8 M21 , but you wont know until you check it out . I have seen articles that say groves on the input shaft can ID them , but I don't know if that is true or not. Thanks Mark.



some swear by the 'number of grooves' method to ID aussie GMH boxes.
Generally (NOT ALL) M21 have 2 grooves , M20 one groove and M22 no groove
but I have an M21 close ratio (as raced on L34s with 2.32 1st gear) with
no groove and I also have a spare input shaft for a V8 M20 with no grooves
... depends
Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
HK1837 Offline
#19 Posted : Monday, 25 October 2021 1:39:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nineteenfortyeight Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Byron for your detailed reply.
I was offered a 253 auto at our car club run yesterday along with an M21 but have no idea if the 253 comes with a trimatic or TH350 or what year it is yet. He said it has a holley carb on it and is complete. $1500 for the 253 auto and $400 for the M21. It belongs to a mate of his as they have recently wrecked a couple of one tonners. He said the M21 was behind a 186 and they only drove it around the paddock before pulling it all apart. How do you tell the difference between M20, M21 and M22?
TIA.
Ron


AFAIK, 253 engines never had T350 trans behind them ...
and
no 6 cyl engine (any size ) had an M21 trans behind it.
M20 (even on XU1) or M22 only (M15 was the 3 speed)

How to tell the diff between M20, M21 and M22?
They all have different 1st gear ratios... so push the box
side lever to select first and then rotate the input shaft
say 10 times and count the number of rotations (or part
rotations) of the output

with an M20, 10 turns of the input shaft will give 3.3 turns
of the output shaft compared to M21 which will give close to 4



Correct, 253 were always manual pattern. They had a V8 Powerglide in HT (not quite a V8 Powerglide, but a hybrid box that was a 6yl Powerglide with a special bellhousing to suit 253/308, V8 pump and extension housing) and Trimatic. In a Bedford they were drilled for TH pattern but only to suit the Eaton boxes which were Chevrolet (TH) pattern.

There were some 6cyl vehicles with an Aussie 4spd M21 in them, and plated M21 on the body ID tag. The VB Commodore rally cars. HK-HT passenger 6cyl cars were optionable with an M21 as well, but that was a Saginaw in HK and HT.

I think you'll find an Aussie 4spd M20 with standard ratios are 3.05:1 1st gear. Standard Aussie 4spd M21 were 2.54:1, but so were the XU1 M20 Aussie 4spd. Initially for HQ there was only M20, M21 and MC7, but when commercials were released a wide ratio M20 was made available for 6cyl applications - this was later given the M22 code. XU1 as Smitty says was also coded M20 as it was the standard box for the later XU1 SVP but it was a close ratio M20 (as opposed to the HQ commercial wide ratio M20!). XU1 eventually had all "optionable" (but never factory fitted) both standard and close ration M21 plus the standard 3.05:1 M20 and of course the earlier LC Opel M20 too that was standard fitment until near the end of LC.

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nineteenfortyeight Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, 27 October 2021 4:28:16 AM(UTC)
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I remember the 3.05 and 2.54 ratios from many years ago, but the designations of the option codes are a little confusing. I may get a chance to check out the 253 auto and the 4 speed on the weekend as it is around 100k's from here.
Why won't an aussie 4 speed fit in a HG? Just curious. Is it the location of the shifter? I can't remember. Old timers?
Thanks Mark, Byron and Smittty.
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