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castellan Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, 24 August 2020 10:39:00 AM(UTC)
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When the VT Commodore came out the VS ute and Statesman V8 became a 168KW. all I can see is that it got a air snorkel that goes above the radiator, so 3KW more for this ?

As to this 168KW engine being a flat bottom lifter block, all such blocks would of stoped being cast a month or two before the VT came out 8/1997 and stock piled for the utes and Statesman's for 14 months say.

So all Holden did was when they brought out the VT to the VS ute and Statesman was toss a snorkel on the 5.0L and the 5.0L manual got the new getrag 5sp from then on.

Then as to the 179KW roller lifter block in the VT they got new lighter pistons thin rings and more compression dual cats dual exhaust to make 179KW but when this engine went into the VS ute and Statesman 11/1998 she still only had the single cat and single exhaust so the fact is that such could never make 179KW at all in fact.
I drove them both and the VS being lest weight to the VT, the VT still went better than the ute.
I would say that the power of the VT having 179kw is mainly due to it's dual cat and exhaust.

The 179KW ute and Statesman should of got the single cat with the old 185KW type of exhaust, but that would still lack power over the VT.

I seen the 195KW Maloo ute on the showroom floor with the old 185KW exhaust but this had extractors like the VT 195kw had, but the Maloo lacks the dual cats so it could not make the VT 195KW.

I would be not be surprised to see a 179KW VS ute make only 168KW or maybe 171KW at best I would think.

I had a mate with a new 179kw ute as I had and we did test runs, mine was a little quicker then his and then he fitted 3in exhaust extractors and big cat and I flogged him, he was so devastated that I said I had fitted a Chip to mine and he believed me. so he went and got his Chipped and then he came out and blew mine off into the weeds. in 3rd gear I started to hit the highway and flatted it and he went by like I was just toddling along.

I have his Dyno figures some where, before and after.
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#2 Posted : Monday, 24 August 2020 12:13:19 PM(UTC)
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... and of course, all the unmarked VSIII utes Vicpol
had in the TMU were chipped Whistle
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HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 24 August 2020 12:18:11 PM(UTC)
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AFAIK VS III were the same engine as VSII and only changed to the roller cam engine later in VS III.

It was probably Holden not bothering to do DIN simulated tests for the 179kW engine in VS and just rated it the same as in VT. This is one of the reasons DIN figures are useless, only any good for new cars, years later they are a pain in the proverbial.

The HBD engine was rated at 195kW in both as well, but some were different to others. My mate has a HBD VT SS 195kW car, it has the HSV prefix engine that has the bigger valve springs and cam? whereas others had a VM prefix as per the 179kW engine but were fitted with the external gear only. Both were rated as 195kW. His has the original owner guide with the VN engine number, unfortunately it is a manual though not an auto. Damn Getrag pos.
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Dr Terry Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 8:35:09 AM(UTC)
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HK1837 is correct, the sequential roller cam VT type motor didn't appear in VS until around Nov 98, 6 months after VSIII release.

Also the 168kW upgrade appeared at the VSII release (June-96) 14 months before VT release.

The 168 kW had the upgraded intake plus a re-mapped memcal, so 3kW isn't a big improvement. They increased the HSV V8 from 180 to 185 kW from VP to VR with virtually no mechanical changes.

I agree about the 179kW figure for late VSIII. This would have been the marketing dept at work.

Dr Terry
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castellan Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 9:39:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK VS III were the same engine as VSII and only changed to the roller cam engine later in VS III.

It was probably Holden not bothering to do DIN simulated tests for the 179kW engine in VS and just rated it the same as in VT. This is one of the reasons DIN figures are useless, only any good for new cars, years later they are a pain in the proverbial.

The HBD engine was rated at 195kW in both as well, but some were different to others. My mate has a HBD VT SS 195kW car, it has the HSV prefix engine that has the bigger valve springs and cam? whereas others had a VM prefix as per the 179kW engine but were fitted with the external gear only. Both were rated as 195kW. His has the original owner guide with the VN engine number, unfortunately it is a manual though not an auto. Damn Getrag pos.


No you are wrong DIN figures should tell the true story, but here is a case that they got away with a lie some how.

The first batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 168KW engine they were a VS III. but the next batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 179KW.
The VS SS utes came out without a rear sway bar.

One bloke I know who bought a new ute every year from the VN said that his 168kw did not perform as well as the 165KW one before it, but you do get that some engines go better or worse regardless, but then again if 5.0L engines is quoted as 165KW and the next is rated at 168KW that maybe true but their is more to the story than the max power figures.
One would think that the 168KW would be an improvement over the 185KW.

When I have talked to most people about how well their cars goes over the last one of the same and even many car dealers, they do not have a clue. some claimed they seen nothing between say a 185KW to a 165KW.
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#6 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 2:38:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

The first batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 168KW engine they were a VS III. but the next batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 179KW.


That is correct. You always hear people say "all VSIII V8s were VT engine". No so.

As I said, VSIII was released in May 98 (the VSIII SS Ute was announced almost straight away) & the VT type V8 came out in Nov 98.

The 2nd issue of VSIII SS Utes were released in Feb 99, so had the later engine.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Tuesday, 25 August 2020 2:59:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 4:03:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK VS III were the same engine as VSII and only changed to the roller cam engine later in VS III.

It was probably Holden not bothering to do DIN simulated tests for the 179kW engine in VS and just rated it the same as in VT. This is one of the reasons DIN figures are useless, only any good for new cars, years later they are a pain in the proverbial.

The HBD engine was rated at 195kW in both as well, but some were different to others. My mate has a HBD VT SS 195kW car, it has the HSV prefix engine that has the bigger valve springs and cam? whereas others had a VM prefix as per the 179kW engine but were fitted with the external gear only. Both were rated as 195kW. His has the original owner guide with the VN engine number, unfortunately it is a manual though not an auto. Damn Getrag pos.


No you are wrong DIN figures should tell the true story, but here is a case that they got away with a lie some how.

The first batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 168KW engine they were a VS III. but the next batch of VS SS ute's came out with the 179KW.
The VS SS utes came out without a rear sway bar.

One bloke I know who bought a new ute every year from the VN said that his 168kw did not perform as well as the 165KW one before it, but you do get that some engines go better or worse regardless, but then again if 5.0L engines is quoted as 165KW and the next is rated at 168KW that maybe true but their is more to the story than the max power figures.
One would think that the 168KW would be an improvement over the 185KW.

When I have talked to most people about how well their cars goes over the last one of the same and even many car dealers, they do not have a clue. some claimed they seen nothing between say a 185KW to a 165KW.


No, I’m 100% correct. DIN is not helpful to enthusiasts as you have no idea of the engine’s real identity, it is masked by factors associated with the car it is installed into, such as exhaust, intake, type of engine fan etc, etc. It might be helpful to Nan and Pop comparing cars when buying them now, but if zero help to enthusiasts, Journalists, researchers etc.

Your second paragraph is exactly what I said and Dr Terry seconded it! VSIII continued as per VSII until later into the series.

The 168kW is not an improvement over the 185kW engine. Those 180kW and later 185kW engines went like stink. Have a look at acceleration figures of those early HSV cars like the SV89 that were something like 6.8s 0-100kph and 14.9s at about 97mph over the quarter, those were the 180kW engine.

Edited by user Tuesday, 25 August 2020 4:19:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 6:19:11 PM(UTC)
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Hi this is Holden's L31 308 from HT to HG well rocker covers are different and then we have the HQ L31 ok some differences again but the same thing.
Then the HJ 5.0L
Then the HX 5.0L
Then the HZ 5.0L
Now we could point out the time line of such things that changed with the HX-Z 5.0L their were made to tune at a point and such. we can pick up on all that by looking at the prefix or casting date. So one can know what engine it is you have. just as it is with the blue 5.0L or Black 5.0L we know what it is. and the EFI 5.0L we know what that is and we can see directly when one is a VT 5.0L.

But a owner of anything who is just enquiring as to what can they do to their car to help improve in some way be that what ever, a dedicated enthusiasts may know what is best to do in that regard to help out that situation.

Now their are different types of enthusiast out their as not are all the same type of such.

But say one of no real knowledge on a subject may say, yo dog ! to the new car dealer when the HQ came out say. That their HQ GTS308 4sp I want one of them dog. ok dog wees get you one. then dog gets the car and has a run with say another HQ GTS308 4sp and gets blown away, so he turns up at the dealer claiming something is wrong with his car because his does not perform anything like the other. now what does the dealership say to such ? well maybe they will look over the car for a problem and come back saying all is totally fine. but if the other car in question is known to the dealer and he is switched on he will inform him that old mate has a option with dual exhaust and that's why. but mate did not know such a thing was possible he seen 240hp advertised and believes such is the case. false advertising one may easy claim !

You know back in the 70's 80's and even today people will claim that dual exhaust only makes more noise, nothing you could say to them would convince them of that and why was that ? well they seen the 308 advertise 240hp and that's it to them.

So a HQ 308 makes about 169hp if that with a stock single exhaust and 196hp with Holden's HQ dual and a HT-G GTS308 dual 204hp as she must be better flowing and it is louder then the HQ duel.

Look at a VN Commodore 5.0L single 165kw to a dual 180kw now with EFI one has to tune such to the exhaust to get the best out of them, or you can go backwards like my mate did with his VS SS ute and I seen the same with a VT SS the one with extractors and big exhaust had nothing on the stock VT SS, we test drove both on the same day and the dealer said the stock one went better. but who ever did the mod to the VT SS I am sure did not chip it to suit.
So see their you go one who does not have the understanding of such things is lost as to the reality and that's what I am on about.

It's the same with a cars handling, many people claim a HQ is a shocking handling car, but they have no idea that such can be made so much better, that they could not believe such a thing. they will just rant that it's shit and that the 308 is just gutless shit. just with a bit of know how the stock HQ 308 engine it's self will give a XB GT a hell of a shock and a few more small not to costly mods to the engine it's self, will hose of a XB GT.
And that's what some enthusiast could point out such facts. so the owner could have a way better experience with such a car.

One could say the same about a woman, as one could say she was a hopeless this or that but another man comes into her life and he knew how to get the best out of her, because he is not ignorant about what he has got.
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#9 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 6:40:07 PM(UTC)
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I bought a VT Calais to wreck. It has the 5.0 litre in it. I went to buy an air filter and two were listed, one bigger, which my car has. They had two power outputs available for these cars I believe? Did the air filter have anything to do with this?
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#10 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 7:40:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
I bought a VT Calais to wreck. It has the 5.0 litre in it. I went to buy an air filter and two were listed, one bigger, which my car has. They had two power outputs available for these cars I believe? Did the air filter have anything to do with this?


AFAIK there is only one air filter element for VT V8s which is the RYCO A1358.

The VT V6 used the same filter, but the V6 with factory LPG used a smaller one (RYCO A360), which BTW was the std VL to VS air filter.

The guy reading the catalogue probably misread it.

Dr Terry

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Smitty2 on 26/08/2020(UTC)
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#11 Posted : Tuesday, 25 August 2020 8:55:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Hi this is Holden's L31 308 from HT to HG well rocker covers are different and then we have the HQ L31 ok some differences again but the same thing.
Then the HJ 5.0L
Then the HX 5.0L
Then the HZ 5.0L
Now we could point out the time line of such things that changed with the HX-Z 5.0L their were made to tune at a point and such. we can pick up on all that by looking at the prefix or casting date. So one can know what engine it is you have. just as it is with the blue 5.0L or Black 5.0L we know what it is. and the EFI 5.0L we know what that is and we can see directly when one is a VT 5.0L.

But a owner of anything who is just enquiring as to what can they do to their car to help improve in some way be that what ever, a dedicated enthusiasts may know what is best to do in that regard to help out that situation.

Now their are different types of enthusiast out their as not are all the same type of such.

But say one of no real knowledge on a subject may say, yo dog ! to the new car dealer when the HQ came out say. That their HQ GTS308 4sp I want one of them dog. ok dog wees get you one. then dog gets the car and has a run with say another HQ GTS308 4sp and gets blown away, so he turns up at the dealer claiming something is wrong with his car because his does not perform anything like the other. now what does the dealership say to such ? well maybe they will look over the car for a problem and come back saying all is totally fine. but if the other car in question is known to the dealer and he is switched on he will inform him that old mate has a option with dual exhaust and that's why. but mate did not know such a thing was possible he seen 240hp advertised and believes such is the case. false advertising one may easy claim !

You know back in the 70's 80's and even today people will claim that dual exhaust only makes more noise, nothing you could say to them would convince them of that and why was that ? well they seen the 308 advertise 240hp and that's it to them.

So a HQ 308 makes about 169hp if that with a stock single exhaust and 196hp with Holden's HQ dual and a HT-G GTS308 dual 204hp as she must be better flowing and it is louder then the HQ duel.

Look at a VN Commodore 5.0L single 165kw to a dual 180kw now with EFI one has to tune such to the exhaust to get the best out of them, or you can go backwards like my mate did with his VS SS ute and I seen the same with a VT SS the one with extractors and big exhaust had nothing on the stock VT SS, we test drove both on the same day and the dealer said the stock one went better. but who ever did the mod to the VT SS I am sure did not chip it to suit.
So see their you go one who does not have the understanding of such things is lost as to the reality and that's what I am on about.

It's the same with a cars handling, many people claim a HQ is a shocking handling car, but they have no idea that such can be made so much better, that they could not believe such a thing. they will just rant that it's shit and that the 308 is just gutless shit. just with a bit of know how the stock HQ 308 engine it's self will give a XB GT a hell of a shock and a few more small not to costly mods to the engine it's self, will hose of a XB GT.
And that's what some enthusiast could point out such facts. so the owner could have a way better experience with such a car.

One could say the same about a woman, as one could say she was a hopeless this or that but another man comes into her life and he knew how to get the best out of her, because he is not ignorant about what he has got.


There was normally two reasons one 308/5.0 Holden, Torana or Statesman went better than an identical car from the same series:

1. Diff ratio. Normally a dealer stock car was a GMH stock order so would have the standard diff ratio. However on the rare occasion they’d have an alternate ratio car that was a cancelled retail order or similar. So say a 5.0L 4spd HJ would normally have a 3.36 but it could alternately have 3.08 or 3.55. The 3.08 would make it a relative slug off the mark and the 3.55 make it feel like a rocket ship. On the rare occasion there was a genuine alternate standard ratio like in HK GTS327 and L34, although in L34 it made no difference other than top gear as the alternate 3.08 ratio had a matching closer ratio gearbox so 1st-3rd were overall the same.

2. The big one: tune. GMH vehicles with Quadrajets were rarely in tune as delivered. Ask any workshop owner from the day or dyno operator. Dr Terry will attest to this. Having a Quadrajet’s secondaries not open properly will cost a car a second over the quarter, 3-4s 0-100mph and 10kph top speed. Probably 10-15hp peak power too.

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Smitty2 on 26/08/2020(UTC)
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#12 Posted : Wednesday, 26 August 2020 11:18:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
......................

2. The big one: tune. GMH vehicles with Quadrajets were rarely in tune as delivered. Ask any workshop owner from the day or dyno operator. Dr Terry will attest to this. Having a Quadrajet’s secondaries not open properly will cost a car a second over the quarter, 3-4s 0-100mph and 10kph top speed. Probably 10-15hp peak power too.


.. agree!

first thing that I do on any car I have with a Quaddy (or a mates if not mine) is to set the float level
then
set the air valve spring adjustment (as in the manual) on the 'light side' to open them quickly then
file the secondary air flap opening stop boss (on the air horn) until the secondarys can actually open 90degrees

Its a must-do

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castellan Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, 26 August 2020 11:48:12 AM(UTC)
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No ! not all series of the same engine will perform the same, you get ones that are gutless as well and others that go a bit better than the rest regardless. I am talking about new or in good nick here.
Many of the Ford Cleveland V8 did not perform well had the camshaft tunnel out of wack and that can mean 12 deg out of wack from the front to the back so such an engine will never perform as well as it should, you can get a camshaft made up to suit for such nowadays.
So I would suppose any engine can have such a problem, let alone some camshaft are not spot on as quality control as well. then their are other things as well and we are only talking about the engine here not the carby ect, so then you can go on from their as well.

From my position with a good stock HQ 308 with dual exhaust and M21 or Trimatic the 3.08 diff is the best one to have, a turbo 400 auto tho just kill the power of a 308 and a 3.36 would be better around town option, but not with a Trimatic they will lay rubber on take off easy with a 3.08
I drove a HG GTS308 T Bar dual exhaust 3.08 LSD, 205 tyres and stoped and planted the foot into it and she just snaked up the road and a HQ GTS308 dual exhaust T Bar with a 3.08 open wheeler with 205 tyres well that was a challenge in it's self to try and not make it spin when taking off, I was trying to gauge the throttle to get enough traction she would light up then I got traction and then start to light up again and again until 2ed gear then I could plant the foot.
I got that HG GTS out to 125mph
And the HQ GTS out to 200KM/H now I was dragging a mates 350 T Bar Corvette, he just revved the Corvette right up and tossed it into low and she had big tires and the whole Corvette just jumped off the line like a toad and did not spin at all but by the time I got traction their was nothing in it until 180KM/H then the Corvette started walking away.

I had a LH SL/R 5000 M21 3.08 LSD with 14in wheels 245 tyres all round and then put a 2.78 diff in it and had no problem in taking of at all and I sure would not want a 3.36 in it as with the 3.08 you just wriggle the throttle and she was all go at 100KM/H did not have to go back to 3rd of she would start spinning like hopping traction but she had a 650 DP Holley and extractors and it would go to 200KM/H and valve bounce. now if you put a 3.36 ratio in a stock 308 185KM/H would be about it's max speed, so who the hell would want that crap. you would have a Mazda RX4 on your arse.

If my 308 M21 van with 3.08 was idling at 600rpm and you dropped out the clutch directly it would not stall, it would take off and run through a brick wall.
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, 26 August 2020 12:11:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
......................

2. The big one: tune. GMH vehicles with Quadrajets were rarely in tune as delivered. Ask any workshop owner from the day or dyno operator. Dr Terry will attest to this. Having a Quadrajet’s secondaries not open properly will cost a car a second over the quarter, 3-4s 0-100mph and 10kph top speed. Probably 10-15hp peak power too.


.. agree!

first thing that I do on any car I have with a Quaddy (or a mates if not mine) is to set the float level
then
set the air valve spring adjustment (as in the manual) on the 'light side' to open them quickly then
file the secondary air flap opening stop boss (on the air horn) until the secondarys can actually open 90degrees

Its a must-do



I have come across people like that even one with a New XC 5.8L found out this was the case with his.

But as to carbys I found that setting them up right and jetting them correctly was the key to getting max power out of your engine, now most mechanic's will have a spack attack oh it's running too rich as if it's a disaster that must be rectified directly and I am like f off ! it's spot on I don't give a f what they think. they demand oh you could not afford the fuel to run the thing and I say I have owned this 308 for years mate and it gets 22mpg on the highway sitting on around 120KM/H or so, that's f ing good ! I drove it 50.000KM a year I my fuel consumption recorded in a book ever time I filled up I know where I am at. sure it chews the fuel at idle at the lights but I did f all city driving.
I re jet all my dirt bikes over the years and I have people with the same type of bike say, why does yours go better than mine.
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, 26 August 2020 12:32:52 PM(UTC)
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^^And these were why most GMH Press test cars with Quadrajets were slow compared to how they perform with the Quadrajet setup correctly and thus the engine developing full power.

You only have to look at the bulk of published tests on manual HK GTS327, HT-HQ GTS350, and 5.0L Torana. You can tell GMH knew it too, as the auto cars actually went as expected given the SAE gross power (real not advertised) yet the manuals were almost always slow. I only know of two proper premium performance manual GMH press test cars from that time that escaped in proper tune and then very soon after were tested again or by others and they were “fixed” to not go properly again. One is a HG GTS350 tested by Mel Nichols in Wheels December 1970. The other was the press test LH SLR5000 in Motor Manual in May 1974. For the HG Mel tested it and got astounding figures but only did 0-100mph and top speed tests. When he got it back a month later it had been “tuned” again and was far slower, near four seconds 0-100mph. The Torana was tested later by Wheels in July 1974, and it too was lots slower. Was over a second slower over the quarter and heaps slower in all the recorded 0-xmph figures.

Edited by user Wednesday, 26 August 2020 12:34:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#16 Posted : Wednesday, 26 August 2020 6:34:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
^^And these were why most GMH Press test cars with Quadrajets were slow compared to how they perform with the Quadrajet setup correctly and thus the engine developing full power.

..................


people... press testers and the like always wondered why press test Commodores (like HDT and SS models)
collected from Port Melbourne or Albert Rd were always slower than those collected from the few HDT In Nth Melbourne had available Whistle

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