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HK1837 Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 7:12:30 AM(UTC)
HK1837

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Just organising to get one of these rebuilt so just checking to see if there are any particular pros and cons with the different types of these? Particularly with fitment and clearances in the engine bay and on the firewall?

The V8 GTS originally had the lever type mech and VH300 booster which I have here. I also have a fair few different ones here, I think the types are VH311, VH312 and VH320 for other HT-HG types (VH312 and VH320 are longer pushrod), plus VH316 for HQ (4 wheel drum) and VH317, VH327 (both XU1) and VH329, VH330 for V8 LH-LX.

As I'm getting one rebuilt I can use bits and pieces off some on others.

Any particular one better or worse than others fitment wise?

I did notice in the books I have that the original VH300 has a longer rod than the other shorter pushrod types, but nowhere near as long as the HT-HG (VH312/VH320). VH300 is 3.86". VH311, VH316, VH317, VH324 are all either 3.61" (VH311) or 3.65" (rest). I imagine this is just to do with attaching directly to the pedal rather than the lever arrangement, so I guess that means that if I use the VH300 and direct mount it I need a pushrod from a VH311?

The only other differences I can see appear to be the check valve and the valve body, they seem to mix and match these. The one that would probably be a direct bolt on is the later HK and earlier HT type, VH311. Everything is the same parts wise as the HK lever type VH300 except the pushrod is 3.61" rather than 3.86". The HQ 4 wheel drum VH316 looks identical to VH311 except the pushrod is 3.65" long.

Edited by user Friday, 13 July 2018 9:32:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Dr Terry Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 9:19:10 AM(UTC)
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I've always found that the later direct (non-lever) type booster gives a better pedal feel.

Also, the main reason that GM-H went from the lever type to the direct pushrod, was to better position the whole booster/m-cyl assembly away from the engine to allow clearance for the factory air cond compressor, when fitted to a V8 model. A bonus is that it gives better access for general servicing etc.

The multitude of part numbers was due to PBR constantly improving & updating its design. For example, the later (smaller) plastic vacuum check has proven over time to be more reliable.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 9:51:06 AM(UTC)
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Terry I think you have confirmed what I suspected, that the later direct acting type is the go. I don't think I actually have a later HK or early HT VH311 with the 3.61" pushrod, pretty sure I only have VH300 and the later HT-HG VH312 and VH320 with the long pushrod. Would using a HQ drum brake VH316 or XU1 VH317/327 3.65" rod be an issue? The difference is only 0.04" (1.01mm), I'm pretty sure that there would be that much slack in the whole system anyway. I think I have one of those XU1 boosters laying around somewhere.

Note this is only to sort out the back part of the booster and the pushrod so I can get started on it. The front bit will depend on what master cylinder I'm told to use by the Engineer. If I have to use a later Ford master i'll use the nose off a Commodore or later UC booster. The car is getting AUII-BA rotors and calipers with HQ rear drums, so not sure what he is going to want or what will work best. The twin 42mm pistons on the BA calipers work out to be the equivalent of a single 60mm piston which is what an earlier Ford (eg XF) had hence the though that a Ford master might work better, and would also allow me to use bigger rear wheel cylinders (ie Ford piston size). This way I end up with a car that weighs pretty much the same as an XF, has front piston x-sectional area the same as an XF, XF master cylinder and XF size rear wheel cylinders with the same diameter and width shoes as an XF. Or conversely the HQ-WB front piston size of 63mm might be close enough to the 60mm equivalent of the AUII-BA, so I can just run a HQ master cylinder with HQ rear cylinders. Thus I can use the whole HK booster.

The car has the mid 1968 front sub-frame on it, with the smooth RH inner guard but with the indent for the direct acting booster.

As i'm making up most all new brake lines, is it worth also using a HQ-HJ type distribution block for the brakes if using a HQ cylinder, and thus eliminating the HK setup? Although more work with the booster with the staggered type master cylinder like an XF or Commodore etc, I guess when it comes to brake lines it is easier as there is no need to worry about distribution as it is done for me at the master cylinder.
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Dr Terry Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 10:09:56 AM(UTC)
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Have you considered using the VS & later type booster/master set-up. These 'quick-fill' master cylinders give a much better pedal feel than plain old 1-inch bore style units.

The BA Ford also uses this design. Using later twin-piston callipers with old fashioned m/cyl doesn't give good results.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 11:25:43 AM(UTC)
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The VS cylinder fits on a UC/WB/VB booster doesn’t it? If it does then I just have to use the nose off a UC/VB type booster on the HK rear half with the right front rod. I’d have to use the Ford cylinder I think as it is designed for the bigger pistons? The problem is i’m running rear drums and all VS and BA are rear disc?

I also assume these later cylinders are the ones with the stepped piston? So bigger front piston and smaller rear? It looks like you can get spacers too so you can fit a VT cylinder on a VS booster, and the BA cylinder looks to be the same/similar as a VT at the back. So I could use a BA cylinder if need be. Just have to figure out the rear drum check valve, could probably pull this out of a WB commercial master cylinder and fit it to a BA cylinder?

This looks easier:

http://www.caenterprises...ges/catelogue/MCA001.jpg

Edited by user Friday, 13 July 2018 11:48:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, 13 July 2018 5:47:35 PM(UTC)
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Just figured out I'm looking for a VH312, and I found one in the shed. Has a 8.6" rod with a nut on the end and an attachment bracket to fix it to the pedal. I have another one that looks similar but the rod is longer by about 1/2" and the check valve hole is smaller. I think this one is late HT and HG, VH320.

In the HK parts catalogue it lists both lever and direct acting boosters, but only the one pedal so I assume VH312 will just hook up to the HK brake pedal? HG and late HT must have a hole in a different spot on the pedal?

Talked to a brake shop guru this afternoon. With the CAE adapter and VT cylinder it will all work fine, doesn't need any prop valve and the cylinder will operate drums fine. I just need the reservoir off whichever Commodore uses the same stepped piston but has a flat lid on it.
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HK1837 Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:53:01 AM(UTC)
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Quick update. Once I get a chance and can figure out if I can post photos without external hosting I'll start a build thread.

Had the VH312 booster rebuilt, just have to grab a Rare Spares VS10574 boot for the firewall+.

I bought one of these from CAE:

http://www.caenterprises...es/catelogue/MCA001.jpg

Allows me to run a VT stepped cylinder on the HK-HG booster. Picture of VT cylinder:

https://www.speedspares....92053055_p/92053055.htm

I think these are 1.25" bore piston for front brakes and 1" for rear. The rear circuit is the clear plug towards the front, and the front circuit(s) are the yellow plugs. I have to make up a full rear brake line back to where the flexible hose joins - I got some VT front brake pipes for the metric fittings. Not yet sure what to do with the front brakes. On a ABS fitted car they have a plug in the outlet pointing downwards, and just have a single front circuit to the ABS module. So I could simply run a pipe down to the existing HK distribution block from one of those front cylinder outlets to where it splits off to either side caliper and joins at the rubber hoses to the calipers. The Rodtech front end comes with hoses on the BA-BF calipers that mate to where original HK front pipes go. The car has all the front brake pipes in place, so would just have to make up a short pipe from the cylinder to the distribution block. OR, make up all new pipes and utilise both of the VT master cylinder front circuit outlets, one for each caliper. Any suggestions? I guess it would be nice to have all new brake lines.

I'm working on getting all the dash/firewall area finished hence why i'm stuffing around with the booster now. I have a Vintage Air unit to fit, and am in the process of fitting a controller to the standard HK dash where the original controls go. Requires some surgery to the plastic surround to fit the Vintage Air controller, but if I do it neatly, get the surround chromed and neatly trim the woodgrain to remove the centre piece around the heater controls it will look really neat. Will use one of these on a Belmont heater blanking plate to get the refrigerant and heater water through the firewall https://pitstopusa.com/i...d-6-10-male-o-ring.html

Once the aircon is in and ducted, i'll be playing with getting a Retro Radio to fit, will have to use the black fascia as unfortunately the woodgrain is Rosewood so no good for a HK: https://www.retrosoundus...=product_list&c=245

They sell a cable to detach the unit from the face on these, so if the unit gets in the road of the A/C I can relocate the unit and leave the face. Will probably mount one of these where the Cigar lighter is on the HK https://www.retrosoundus...roduct_detail&p=755 and these guys sell dual input speakers so you can actually fit a "stereo" speaker on the dash where the original went, on the parcel shelf covered by a Rare's replica speaker grille plus a small pair down on the kick panel where you could option speakers on a HK. Should give more than adequate sound, and allow phone Bluetooth, Bluetooth or USB connected music from iPhone etc. Dash speaker example: https://www.retrosoundus...roduct_detail&p=179

Lastly dash wise this car will be fitted with a 1969 350hp Corvette Quadrajet, which are divorced choke. I'll fit an electric choke operator to it and thus have to fit a switch on the dash, will fit it where the choke black goes on a HK GTS. Will probably just make it a little "pull"button so it works like a choke. ALl I have to do then is figure out what to fit where the VENT knob is, unless I actually keep a fresh air intake it won't be needed.

I think I'm going to have to make up some sort of alloy insert to fit where the glovebox was, to locate a small fuse block and a few relays for extras on the car that aren't part of the original wiring, like the A/C unit, radio supply, choke supply, MSD unit, electric fuel pump etc. With any luck the MSD will fit in the smaller glovebox too (MSD pro-billet HEI dizzy on the engine).


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gmholdman Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 24 July 2018 5:21:13 PM(UTC)
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I don't know if you have the room in a FE/FC but I fitted the relays between the firewall and the glove box in my FJ. I had to shorten the glove box about 1" and also of course remove the glove box each time you need to get at the relays but how often do you need to get at relays?? Just my thoughts. AL.
HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, 24 July 2018 5:34:02 PM(UTC)
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It is a HK not an FE/FC!
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gmholdman Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, 24 July 2018 5:37:01 PM(UTC)
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sorry about that, just left the fe/fc site and it was still on my mind LOL, tried to edit but could not? AL.
HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, 25 July 2018 7:13:40 AM(UTC)
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No need to apologise, you were helping! HK has a soft glovebox, I'll just make a sheet alloy "shelf" that is whatever depth is required to clear the aircon unit and pipes/hoses. Then mount the gear inside of it. Very similar to the second last photo in this link
https://www.whichcar.com...k-monaro-brendan-cherry
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Ausjacko Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 26 July 2018 11:04:09 AM(UTC)
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Hey HK1837, do you have a link that outlines what each booster is for and the dims. Looking for info on a Model 1 VH303 if there is no link.
Cheers
Jacko
HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 26 July 2018 11:17:50 AM(UTC)
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No link but I have a PBR book. I can scan page for you. Pretty sure that VH301-5 except for one of them are just variations of VH300 which was the original HK booster.

Edited by user Thursday, 26 July 2018 11:38:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, 26 July 2018 8:06:37 PM(UTC)
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VH305 is the same as VH300, ie early HK with disc brakes but has VH2128 Valve Rod Assembly (whatever that means). The book lists VH300, VH304, VH305 then some other weirdo VH306 based upon VH300 with an odd looking PBR twin canister master cylinder (P5410) (possibly off a Bedford or something like that) and then VH308. All are based upon VH300. Then VH311 that is the same as VH300 but has a shorter rear rod
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 1 user thanked HK1837 for this useful post.
Ausjacko on 26/07/2018(UTC)
Ausjacko Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, 26 July 2018 10:27:55 PM(UTC)
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A scan would be handy. Anything on VH303?
HK1837 Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, 27 July 2018 6:26:41 AM(UTC)
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I can scan it if you give me an email address (if the scanner chooses to work - been playing up).

Nothing on VH303 (or 301 or 302). VH304 is the same as VH300 but with VH2059 valve rod assembly, given both VH304, VH305 and VH308 are just VH300 with different valve rod assembly I imagine VH303 would be the same.

Both yellow and blue HK parts books lists two different lever type boosters 7438238 and 7438239, and the noted difference is the part number of the master cylinders.

7438238 is for cylinder 7434968
7438239 is for cylinder 7437065

Text says the two cylinders are used alternately in production, and you identify 7434968 by the nut at the front which is 1 1/2" across the flats.

The drum brake booster and cylinders has the same setup just different part numbers. There is also two part numbers for 307 with A/C master cylinder, but the difference here is stated as either both side entry (assume early) and the one with the front pipe entry (later type).

Unfortunately there is no detail on the VH numbers of the boosters though. The really early book is the same too.

Given the mention of a different "valve rod assembly" my guess is the rod at the nose of the booster is slightly different.
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Ausjacko Offline
#17 Posted : Friday, 27 July 2018 10:05:51 PM(UTC)
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you need to free up space in your mail box to receive PM's- one of which has my email ;-)
Cheers
Jacko
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