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Warren Turnbull
Vintage Veteran
Australia
1767 Posts |
 Posted - 26/07/2012 : 09:09:17 AM
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Byron,
Was floor shift M20 still an option in HG?
Interesting is 337 with M20 has M11 mandatory.
I guess it was left over from pre Monaro. Might have been gone by HT. I do not have the full HT option book.
Warren |
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Squeak327
Street & Strip
88 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 09:33:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
Still finding it hard to believe that you could ever factory order a 4spd HK-HG with buckets and seat separator!
HK1837 here is a theory for you based purely and simply on what is in the brochure from which I posted the above photo. You can see from the photo that the car in question is not a Premier (because of the door trims). It has Buckets but no seat separator.
However, in the grid table in that brochure, which lists the options available on the various models there is an item for Seat Separator.
It reads:
" Seat separator (Premier only - mandatory with bucket seats)"
That same item indicates that the separator was standard on Prem but not available on Kingswood or Belmont.
Could it be therefore that 4 speed with buckets in a Premier, you got a separator but other models you did not? That is how I interpret the brochure |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 10:15:41 AM
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M20 floor shift was an option on HG passenger vehicles, M21 only with V8 (passenger and commercials). Both M11 only with buckets except commercials. Not available on Belmont or Brougham. M21 on commercials only with buckets, and no console in these either.
Squeak, I thought about that ie seat separator mandatory in Premier, even with floor shift. I wouldn't bet the farm on sales brochure info though, they often have generic statements and mistakes. The answer will be in pre and post Monaro HK ordering procedures. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Squeak327
Street & Strip
88 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 10:48:00 AM
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^^^^^ I appreciate what you say about the brochures - same as relying exclusively on parts books to determine what was and was not available.
Hard to be certain given that what I have is only a reprint, but it appears to be brochure G541 of 11/67 and therefore well and truly predates Monaro stuff.
I guess annecdotal support for the theory could be gained from the car HGV8 is considering, depending on how original it is. |
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Dr Terry
Forum Engineer
Australia
3896 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 4:43:51 PM
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Byron, I think what Warren was asking is:- was an M20 floor shift still available in HG. Not console shift, but floor shift with the flat (boomerang) stick. Was it?
Dr Terry |
Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant !! It's plant food !! |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 6:11:59 PM
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| No, just with M11. So no 4spd without console in passenger vehicles. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Squeak327
Street & Strip
88 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 6:31:44 PM
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Just to make it a bit harder for you to get to the bottom of, here is extract from a HG sales brochure, acknowledging that they are not gospel:
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HGV8
Quarter Horse
Australia
125 Posts |
Posted - 26/07/2012 : 9:33:19 PM
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| The car has its original owners books and was sold as a 186s manual. There is no indication it was anything other then a opel 4 speed. It still has its original carpet which shows no sign of ever having a full length console. Has correct steering column shroud etc. Owners bought it second hand in early 1969, as it is now. I think the 10R code is for black trim (10) and the (R) is for fixed buckets seats (non reclining) but am not positive on this code. Its the only one I have seen equipped like this but I am pretty sure this is how it was built. A bit confusing reading all the comments but can't be 100% positive on it until I see another one with the same fitment or option I suppose. |
j.williams |
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Mr.Jones
Quarter Horse
.jpg)
Australia
439 Posts |
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B_Bartos
Newbie
Australia
15 Posts |
Posted - 27/07/2012 : 12:01:52 PM
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| Hi all, so if 10R = all vinyl no cloth inserts, what does the 10X (1194-10X)in my Nov 1969 Melb built HT GTS 80737 (in need of total resto), mean? |
Gunna be a long time staring up at the lid of a box..... |
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Squeak327
Street & Strip
88 Posts |
Posted - 27/07/2012 : 12:14:44 PM
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| 10X in your case means black vinyl - no cloth inserts. Black vinyl with cloth inserts in HT GTS are 10Y and 10Z |
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B_Bartos
Newbie
Australia
15 Posts |
Posted - 27/07/2012 : 12:23:19 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Squeak327
10X in your case means black vinyl - no cloth inserts. Black vinyl with cloth inserts in HT GTS are 10Y and 10Z[quote]Thanks for that Squeak327 |
Gunna be a long time staring up at the lid of a box..... |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2012 : 11:15:50 AM
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Talked to Ben about this. Appears that from HK release (2/68) which would be initial build vehicles, and as shown on initial HK brochure, M20 with A50 or XS6 was a straight stick shift. In 3/68 there was an ordering brochure issued that shows a seat separator as coming with A50 or XS6 regardless of gearbox, and it shows the photos from the original HK brochure (HK Kingswood with XS6 and Premier with A50) with seat separator drawn in. From 6/68 onwards M11 (console) was mandatory with M20 (and later with M21).
So it appears there was a very short window for an M20 optioned HK Belmont, Kingswood or Premier to have A50 fixed buckets, XS6 reclining buckets and D55 seat separator. Probably 4/68 or 5/78 build if ordered from 3/68. All cool stuff and good to learn! |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Warren Turnbull
Vintage Veteran
Australia
1767 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2012 : 5:44:59 PM
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Acording to the Holden production Options within the HK engineering reprot:
A50 FRONT BUCKETS SEATS NON RECLINING (P35 - 20 issued 8/67 rev 2/69)
Only with D55 seat separator, or M11 floorshift, or M21, M22 transmissions
D55 SEAT SEPARATOR (P35 - 16 Issued 8/67 rev 2/69)
Mandatory and only with A50 or XS6 bucket seats
Not with M11 floor shift or M21, M22 transmissions
M11 CONSOLE FLOOR SHIFT (P35 - 6 issue 2/68 rev 2/69)
All 35, 69 stykes: Only with M35, M20 transmission together with A50, XS6 bucket seats. Equipment standard with M21, M22 transmissions on 35, 37, 69 styles and model 80380
80337 models: Only with M35 transmission - or manditory with M20 transmission
M20 MANUAL TRANSMISSION - 4 SPEED (P35 - 7 issued 8/67 rev 6/68)
refer power train combination for engine and axle availability
Only with L6 engine
337: only with M11 floorshift
XS6 FRONT BUCKET SEAT-RECLINING (P35 - 20 issued 8/67 rev 2/69)
Only with D55 seat separator, or M11 floorshift, or M21, M22 transmissions
From this is says you can get an M20 without console, with seat separator, and bucket seats. You will note that the dates do show continual inprovement, What may have happened is Ben might have refered to an older copy, not with 69 update (he has the one I am looking at also), which may have then reversed back to the original version.
Warren |
Edited by - Warren Turnbull on 30/07/2012 5:46:54 PM |
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HKTG Parts Recovery
Quarter Horse
Australia
330 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2012 : 9:33:31 PM
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| I bought an original HK Premier sedan today. It is an Opel 4 speed with reclining buckets factory fitted. It has the full length console, colour coded in Buckskin Beige. |
Coming soon....HT 80270 windowless van, 253, Saginaw, Sports Dash, Pharoah Gold on Red |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2012 : 08:30:37 AM
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That is how they'd all be with buckets and 4spd post 6/68. Nice combo!
Warren, I don't agree. I reckon it says M20 was only available without M11 with a bench seat. M21/M22 were console shift only, ie not with bench seat. The reason M11 is mandatory with 337 is you couldn't get a bench seat. D55 is mandatory with A50/XS6 except when M11 or M21/M22 specify otherwise. As M11 is mandatory with buckets and M20 then D55 wouldn't apply. This is the same as HG, and also specified on HK order procedure the same.
What is intersting, could you check the last bit of the second line of M11? That is very surprising that it says M11 was standard with M21 and M22 in 80380. As far as I am aware the very first and only Holden commercial to get a console prior to HX release was Sandman in 1974. You certainly couldn't get M11 in a HG commercial, and i'm 99% sure HT and HK were the same. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Warren Turnbull
Vintage Veteran
Australia
1767 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2012 : 6:09:39 PM
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I typed it just as it is Byron.
Now what you must remember is that HK was the start of the option game. They had heaps of options.
You cannot get a Kingswood with power windows in an HG, but you can in an HK, but not on a ute.
Under C64 air conditioner hang on type it states:
M20 transmission only with M11 floorshift.
Therefore if M11 was compulsary with buckets then this statement would also be under A50/XS6.
I am only typing what is in the Holden literature. If you disagree then so be it.
Warren |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2012 : 6:39:04 PM
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Warren
I wasn't disagreeing with the words, but the interpretation. The only thing there unexpected is the availability of M11 on a HK ute. I'd say you are spot on with the option game in HK, they must have kurbed it pretty quickly.
On the console front those HK words don't state M11 was mandatory with buckets. They state XS6/A50 were standard with D55 or M11 or M21/M22. Also states D55 was mandatory with XS6/A50 except not with M11 floorshift or M21/M22. The way I read it is if you ordered buckets with either the standard 3spd transmission or M15 3spd or M35 powerglide you got D55 and column shift. If you ordered M21/M22 you automatically got A50/XS6 and M11. If you ordered M20 you got a stick shift with bench, except if you optioned XS6 or A50 then you got M11. This of course would be post 6/68. For that period prior you could get buckets and stick shift (early) and buckets, stick shift and D55 (3/68 to 6/68).
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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HKTG Parts Recovery
Quarter Horse
Australia
330 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2012 : 7:40:59 PM
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We'll soon see. I'm onto a windowless HT Panel van that is factory 253 Saginaw four speed. I just awaiting photos for verification before I buy it.
The above mentioned for speed HK Premier I just purchased is a late April 69. Unusually it has Brougham carpet in it. I know this as the heel mat is genuine. It is in poor condition and I could'nt say for sure if it was factory fitted but the car is fairly unmolested.
Warren you say power windows were'nt available in HG Kingswoods? The custom features brochure says otherwise. |
Coming soon....HT 80270 windowless van, 253, Saginaw, Sports Dash, Pharoah Gold on Red |
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HK1837
Forum Engineer
Australia
8313 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2012 : 7:57:18 PM
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That HT van will be a corker Simon. There were a few made but not many around today. Premier sounds nice.
HG ordering procedure says power windows were only on 811, 812 or 814. Not available on Belmont or Kingswood. There is always the special instructions section of the order form though, so whilst normal plebs like us couldn't order it someone special may have been able to. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Topic |
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HK Premier 4 speed 186s