Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.

3 Pages<123>
Monaro23D Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 7:23:30 PM(UTC)
Monaro23D

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 29
Australia
Location: Victoria

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Byron 23D is a Melbourne car (M chassis number) and ran at Bathurst with a Suttons decal on the rear window. As the other two team cars did not wear Suttons decals l can only guess that 23D was supplied by Suttons from the outset. 24D was subsequently advertised by Bill Patterson Holden (Ringwood Vic) in full race trim in the March 1969 issue of Motor Manual. The advert states the car was second outright in the Bathurst 500 and was specially prepared by Bill Patterson Motors. This suggests to me that 24D was supplied by Pattesons and was not the Midway car. 25D ended up with Midway Motors and did the rounds of Brisbane on a tram wearing 25D number and its green stripes are visible in photographs. Both 23D and 25D ran in the Surfers 12 hour event.
There has been some conjecture (Australian Muscle Car mag) that bonnets were swapped between the cars after scruitineering; but given that they were all returned by road to Melbourne for examination by GMH engineering post race and my discussions with Denis Geary who acquired 23D from Suttons l believe that no swapping of bonnets took place.
Monaro HK 327 GTS
Ausjacko Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 7:43:45 PM(UTC)
Ausjacko

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 30/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 167

Thanks: 50 times
Was thanked: 6 time(s) in 6 post(s)
Anyone have a clue why they made the HG 350 with only a 2 speed power glide?
HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 7:52:30 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Ausjacko Go to Quoted Post
Anyone have a clue why they made the HG 350 with only a 2 speed power glide?


What else would they have fitted?
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
8D11PCH2 Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 8:33:24 PM(UTC)
8D11PCH2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/09/2016(UTC)
Posts: 208
Australia
Location: OZ

Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 22 post(s)
[quote=HK1837;175082]Not for Bathurst 1968, it was ARDC controlled. It was different homologation to regular CAMS controlled Series Production. What I stated is correct. GMH also had to scramble to show they had built 200 HK Kingswood sedans with 186S, 4spd and bucket seats so that car 35C could compete. I always wondered why they raced this car with an Opel 4spd when both an all synchro 3spd and Saginaw 4spd were available - my guess is there were nowhere near 200 of either made in a 186S HK Kingswood sedan, especially with bucket seats for the all synchro version.


Yes, the ARDC as organiser of the event had to have it's own supplementary rules and regulations but these supplementary R&R's had to be approved by the Confederation of Australian Motorsport, and such supplementary R&R's could not be in conflict with the International Sporting Code of the FIA and the National Competitions Rules of the Confederation of Australian Motorsport under which all motorsport in Australia is conducted, with the exception of karting and drag racing.

Edited by user Thursday, 11 October 2018 8:34:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 8:54:50 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
It was how I stated it, I’m simply stating facts as to what occurred in 1968 and what was required by GMH to prove eligibility to the ARDC.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
8D11PCH2 Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 9:29:12 PM(UTC)
8D11PCH2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/09/2016(UTC)
Posts: 208
Australia
Location: OZ

Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 22 post(s)
Byron, I have no doubt the ARDC was unduly ANAL with they way they ran their events but fact is the ARDC could not override the International Sporting Code or the National Competition Rules. All vehicles competing in motorsport competitions must comply with one of the categories of vehicles as set down in Appendix C of the NCR.

If the Ford GT you spoke of with the automatic transmission was log booked for Group E Series Production then according to the 1968 Group E Series Production Rules that car was 100% legal to compete.
abi Offline
#27 Posted : Thursday, 11 October 2018 11:36:32 PM(UTC)
abi

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 70

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
One thing you will notice in old photos is all the 327s (and GTs) at Bathurst run the stock exhaust all the way to the rear including the quad tail pipes and at other events such as Warwick Farm and Oran Park they exit at the side under the door. This would be due to ARDC vs CAMS rules.

On another point, do we have particulars such as the laps each car pitted for some of the front runners in the 68 500? Number of pad changes and if tyres were changed? I recall 13D ran the event on the one tyre set, what about the others?

Cheers Adrian
hkgtsmonaro05 Offline
#28 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 6:13:24 AM(UTC)
hkgtsmonaro05

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 29

Any info on what become of some of these great HK GTS 327s after the 1968 Bathurst race, There is a bit of info about the HDT 3 Monaro's but what about the winning car of McPhee/Mullholland 13d or the West/Marks 14d or Roberts/Watson 15d - Where did they end up?
HK1837 Offline
#29 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 6:24:43 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: 8D11PCH2 Go to Quoted Post
Byron, I have no doubt the ARDC was unduly ANAL with they way they ran their events but fact is the ARDC could not override the International Sporting Code or the National Competition Rules. All vehicles competing in motorsport competitions must comply with one of the categories of vehicles as set down in Appendix C of the NCR.

If the Ford GT you spoke of with the automatic transmission was log booked for Group E Series Production then according to the 1968 Group E Series Production Rules that car was 100% legal to compete.


In isolation that may be how it seems, but it is not the case. At least the 15D car and the 19D car raced at Sandown, 15D actually won it. They would not have been eligible to race at Bathurst in 1968 if GMH had not done what they had to, to qualify the GTS327, yet they more than likely had CAMS log books. Plus some of the GTS327's that raced at Bathurst 1968 for the first time didn't even have CAMS log books. The Bathurst 1968 race was an ARDC set of rules with different eligibility, the only free item that I am aware of was tyres. For example a prior logged booked CAMS car had one of its numbers in the wrong place it wouldn't be eligible, it would have to be moved or duplicated (this is why the HDRT have two numbers on the bonnet).

Have a read on April 1969 Modern Motor if you can find one.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
HK1837 Offline
#30 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 6:39:47 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Monaro23D Go to Quoted Post
Byron 23D is a Melbourne car (M chassis number) and ran at Bathurst with a Suttons decal on the rear window. As the other two team cars did not wear Suttons decals l can only guess that 23D was supplied by Suttons from the outset. 24D was subsequently advertised by Bill Patterson Holden (Ringwood Vic) in full race trim in the March 1969 issue of Motor Manual. The advert states the car was second outright in the Bathurst 500 and was specially prepared by Bill Patterson Motors. This suggests to me that 24D was supplied by Pattesons and was not the Midway car. 25D ended up with Midway Motors and did the rounds of Brisbane on a tram wearing 25D number and its green stripes are visible in photographs. Both 23D and 25D ran in the Surfers 12 hour event.
There has been some conjecture (Australian Muscle Car mag) that bonnets were swapped between the cars after scruitineering; but given that they were all returned by road to Melbourne for examination by GMH engineering post race and my discussions with Denis Geary who acquired 23D from Suttons l believe that no swapping of bonnets took place.


I think the cars themselves may have been mixed up then as they went to GMH for race preparation. Suttons supplied a Pagewood car, Pattersons a Dandenong car and Midway the old Elizabeth development car.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
HK1837 Offline
#31 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 6:50:59 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: hkgtsmonaro05 Go to Quoted Post
Any info on what become of some of these great HK GTS 327s after the 1968 Bathurst race, There is a bit of info about the HDT 3 Monaro's but what about the winning car of McPhee/Mullholland 13d or the West/Marks 14d or Roberts/Watson 15d - Where did they end up?


Des West won the Warwick farm trophy race in December, and both Bill Brown and Nick Petrelli (crashed out of Bathurst in Practice) competed there too. These were the same cars from October.
Two HDT cars (23D and 25D) raced at the Surfers Paradise Rothmans 12 hour in 1969 with Bruce McPhee in his Bathurst winner 13D.

We know 23D still exists, and I have it on good authority that 14D has gone to heaven. 15D or 19D may still exist. The whereabouts of 13D is a closely guarded secret, I thought I had found it in the early 90's when I found my yellow GTS327, but it turned out to be another significant car. The other HDRT cars have not yet turned up to my knowledge. I do recall someone stating that the Petrelli car may still be around, although it never started at Bathurst 1968.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
8D11PCH2 Offline
#32 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 7:42:54 AM(UTC)
8D11PCH2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/09/2016(UTC)
Posts: 208
Australia
Location: OZ

Was thanked: 23 time(s) in 22 post(s)
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 8D11PCH2 Go to Quoted Post
Byron, I have no doubt the ARDC was unduly ANAL with they way they ran their events but fact is the ARDC could not override the International Sporting Code or the National Competition Rules. All vehicles competing in motorsport competitions must comply with one of the categories of vehicles as set down in Appendix C of the NCR.

If the Ford GT you spoke of with the automatic transmission was log booked for Group E Series Production then according to the 1968 Group E Series Production Rules that car was 100% legal to compete.


In isolation that may be how it seems, but it is not the case. At least the 15D car and the 19D car raced at Sandown, 15D actually won it. They would not have been eligible to race at Bathurst in 1968 if GMH had not done what they had to, to qualify the GTS327, yet they more than likely had CAMS log books. Plus some of the GTS327's that raced at Bathurst 1968 for the first time didn't even have CAMS log books. The Bathurst 1968 race was an ARDC set of rules with different eligibility, the only free item that I am aware of was tyres. For example a prior logged booked CAMS car had one of its numbers in the wrong place it wouldn't be eligible, it would have to be moved or duplicated (this is why the HDRT have two numbers on the bonnet).

Have a read on April 1969 Modern Motor if you can find one.



The ARDC rules were supplementary to the National Competition Rules.
If any car competed in any motorsport competition/event in Australia (other than Karting or Drag racing) without a Log Book then it was because The C.A.M.S allowed it to.

Have a read of a 1968 CAMS Manual of Motorsport if you can find one.

Edited by user Friday, 12 October 2018 7:43:49 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#33 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 8:22:46 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
I will if I get time, but what it says will not change facts or history. What I stated happened. No amount of reading CAMS rules can change that! It is the historical stuff that interests me, not trying to prove what the ARDC were supposed to do, but what they actually did.

Edited by user Friday, 12 October 2018 8:25:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
HK1837 Offline
#34 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 8:43:39 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
One thing you will notice in old photos is all the 327s (and GTs) at Bathurst run the stock exhaust all the way to the rear including the quad tail pipes and at other events such as Warwick Farm and Oran Park they exit at the side under the door. This would be due to ARDC vs CAMS rules.

On another point, do we have particulars such as the laps each car pitted for some of the front runners in the 68 500? Number of pad changes and if tyres were changed? I recall 13D ran the event on the one tyre set, what about the others?

Cheers Adrian


When I get the time sheets in front of me and have time I will see if I can pick the it stop laps.
We do know that the 1968 race had mandatory pit stops and that the GTS327’s did it with 2 stops where the GT’s needed at least 3 (you can work this out by fuel consumption somewhere between 5-10mpg for GTS and GT and fuel tank sizes too).

McPhee did use buffed tyres but 14D and 24D may have used one set too, just not buffed. Driver changes were slow (race footage highlights are on YouTube) and they all had to have front pad changes (McPhee said he did).
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#35 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 9:20:49 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,606

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Ausjacko Go to Quoted Post
Anyone have a clue why they made the HG 350 with only a 2 speed power glide?


They had 3sp autos in the USA in small block Chevs, so yes they could of done so, but it cost more.
castellan Offline
#36 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 9:36:25 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,606

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Right you are, but the ones who ran such cars must of did so knowing that they were not going to win, but had other motives to be in the race, to be sure to be sure.

Why do you think that the XT GT auto should not of raced.
Look at all the rubbish that raced them years 4cly crap and all.
A XT GT with the C4 auto would kill a HK 327GTS if they came out with the 2sp auto on any track.
Maybe they were proving just how good the best auto in the world was with C4 auto at Bathurst.


This is what is missed on Bathurst, it was not about outright wins, there were many classes, so that 4 cylinder crap actually won its class. The idea of the racing was to show the endurance of the cars, how they held up. So even surviving the race was a win.

Unfortunately the rules have been changed and from 1972 it slowly became a touring car race, ending where we are today.

What was being pointed out was that the ARDC was not going to allow the GTS 327 to run as there were multiple rear axle ratios and they need proof that at least 200 of each rear axle ratio, wanting to be entered, had been produced. Did they produce 200 auto XT GTs in time?
Yes I know the classes at the time.
As an endurance class race what does ratios really have to do with such, it's stupid as it's a race track, what works best on the road does not count on the track.

No wonder the XT GT with 2,93 ratio had a hard time against a HK GTS327 with a 3.36 ratio.
Not to mention that the XT GT carby is only 441 CFM 4BBL vs the 600 plus CFM of the Holden, so when we look at the 441 CFM 4 BBL what does that work out to be in 2 BBL CFM ? not much at all. will have to do the math on that.
castellan Offline
#37 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 9:59:59 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,606

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
One thing you will notice in old photos is all the 327s (and GTs) at Bathurst run the stock exhaust all the way to the rear including the quad tail pipes and at other events such as Warwick Farm and Oran Park they exit at the side under the door. This would be due to ARDC vs CAMS rules.

On another point, do we have particulars such as the laps each car pitted for some of the front runners in the 68 500? Number of pad changes and if tyres were changed? I recall 13D ran the event on the one tyre set, what about the others?

Cheers Adrian


When I get the time sheets in front of me and have time I will see if I can pick the it stop laps.
We do know that the 1968 race had mandatory pit stops and that the GTS327’s did it with 2 stops where the GT’s needed at least 3 (you can work this out by fuel consumption somewhere between 5-10mpg for GTS and GT and fuel tank sizes too).

McPhee did use buffed tyres but 14D and 24D may have used one set too, just not buffed. Driver changes were slow (race footage highlights are on YouTube) and they all had to have front pad changes (McPhee said he did).

With this buffed tyres, what I find is that new tyres are crap and need running in, especially crap and likes of what they had back in the day, you would not just toss on new tyres and go for it or you will most likely loose control of it.

I would drive 40km home from getting new tyres on the highway and it was some what like an alligator to drive every time, but once that heat cycle got done and then cooled down over night and the next day they were fine, that's what it took and bingo all was good.

Much the same with top shelf tyres on my ZX10 road bike they would need carful couple of rides or you could chew them up when fanging it, so I did such so as to make the tyres last longer.

Some people take the new tyres out into the sun for a few weeks before putting them on.
HK1837 Offline
#38 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 10:02:38 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ausjacko Go to Quoted Post
Anyone have a clue why they made the HG 350 with only a 2 speed power glide?


They had 3sp autos in the USA in small block Chevs, so yes they could of done so, but it cost more.


They had a TH400 but it would never have fitted the old HD-HG floor pan. The new TH350 was only introduced in 1969, and the HG was well locked in by that time.

Closer to the truth will be fact that the HG isn't truly a different model, it is more of a "SeriesII HT". It was only created as GMH thought the HT would end up running for way too long as the HQ was delayed terribly by GM US's decision to have GMH kill off the HK based HQ and replace it with a US design, which GMH had to finalise. Thus the "gap filler" HG was created.

If you ignore the softening of the HG (examples removal of stainless, the softer nose and tail-lights and softening of suspension in more variants) there isn't all that much difference between a HT and a HG. Sure GMH's rejig of the European TH180 into the Trimatic was part of HG, but it was probably destined to be introduced with HQ anyway.

At the end of the day, the amount of re-work to fit a TH400 for less than 200 cars only for HG wouldn't be worth it. Plus the cost would be prohibitive and it is unlikely that the GM parent would even supply the TH400 transmission for the LM1 engine in that size car anyway. TH350 yes, but it wasn't available when the HG was designed.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#39 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 10:13:07 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,606

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I guess it depends on whether the HT 308 GTS was standard spec or optioned with dual exhaust and maybe with 3.36 rear axle. An early HT 5.0L GTS (307) with dual exhaust was a quick car as from memory it was standard with a 3.36 rear axle. The automatic HT 350 was pretty quick too.


HT-G GTS 308's all have dual exhaust and std 3.36 diff and XT GT have 2.93 diff, but I am sure that the HT-G GTS 308 auto or manual would hose of a XT GT, but for top end, but a 3.08 ratio would still eat a XT GT I am sure.

HG GTS 308 trimatic auto would be a quicker car than a GTS 350 auto.Shhh

Edited by user Friday, 12 October 2018 10:16:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#40 Posted : Friday, 12 October 2018 10:17:04 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,569

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 458 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Right you are, but the ones who ran such cars must of did so knowing that they were not going to win, but had other motives to be in the race, to be sure to be sure.

Why do you think that the XT GT auto should not of raced.
Look at all the rubbish that raced them years 4cly crap and all.
A XT GT with the C4 auto would kill a HK 327GTS if they came out with the 2sp auto on any track.
Maybe they were proving just how good the best auto in the world was with C4 auto at Bathurst.


This is what is missed on Bathurst, it was not about outright wins, there were many classes, so that 4 cylinder crap actually won its class. The idea of the racing was to show the endurance of the cars, how they held up. So even surviving the race was a win.

Unfortunately the rules have been changed and from 1972 it slowly became a touring car race, ending where we are today.

What was being pointed out was that the ARDC was not going to allow the GTS 327 to run as there were multiple rear axle ratios and they need proof that at least 200 of each rear axle ratio, wanting to be entered, had been produced. Did they produce 200 auto XT GTs in time?
Yes I know the classes at the time.
As an endurance class race what does ratios really have to do with such, it's stupid as it's a race track, what works best on the road does not count on the track.

No wonder the XT GT with 2,93 ratio had a hard time against a HK GTS327 with a 3.36 ratio.
Not to mention that the XT GT carby is only 441 CFM 4BBL vs the 600 plus CFM of the Holden, so when we look at the 441 CFM 4 BBL what does that work out to be in 2 BBL CFM ? not much at all. will have to do the math on that.


The XT were 3:1 rear axle I believe but had a taller first greater than the HK's M21 Saginaw (2.87 vs 2.54). Most of the HK's were 3.08 rear axle, only two were 3.36 I believe but the 3.08 equipped HK's still pulled away easily, just the 3.36 equipped cars did it even better again. They ran the same tyres too ie 185x14, although the HK was standard with D70x14. As you say though it was the engine power than let them down, 230hp vs 250hp. A properly tuned dead stock GTS327 with 3.36 rear axle was a low 15 second car, and did 130mph. The XT was near a second slower and could only do 124mph.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Users browsing this topic
Guest
3 Pages<123>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.305 seconds.