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Can I be a bit pedantic for a moment. All these different changes and updates, upgrades and the like. How many were released by GM-H with the name or badged Series 2. None of these referred to here as Series 1 were released as the series 1, wasn't it at the time of the release of the series 2 the previous became to be known as the series 1. Bit like Ph 1 and Ph 2 GT Falcons, Did Ford name the Ph 3, Ph3 or was it just a name adopted. Was it only after release of the Ph 3, that the previous two were referred to as Ph 1 and 2. Same thing with Type 1 HK GTS 327, there were none released as a Type 1 327, it only showed up in later GM-H literature after the change with the slightly different 327 motor there was reference then to a Type 1 and Type 2.
As a matter of interest. How many Holdens ( or Holden Badged ) were released and badged by Holden as a Series 2 or Type 2 or Ph 2.etc ? as 1 2 3 4 .. or Letters for that matter i.e. 48-215 to FX etc.
I think we may have got off this post original discussion point on Question of Myths so I think I might start another post with that question....
Jack
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Originally Posted by: Flem  Can I be a bit pedantic for a moment. All these different changes and updates, upgrades and the like. How many were released by GM-H with the name or badged Series 2. None of these referred to here as Series 1 were released as the series 1, wasn't it at the time of the release of the series 2 the previous became to be known as the series 1. Bit like Ph 1 and Ph 2 GT Falcons, Did Ford name the Ph 3, Ph3 or was it just a name adopted. Was it only after release of the Ph 3, that the previous two were referred to as Ph 1 and 2. Same thing with Type 1 HK GTS 327, there were none released as a Type 1 327, it only showed up in later GM-H literature after the change with the slightly different 327 motor there was reference then to a Type 1 and Type 2.
As a matter of interest. How many Holdens ( or Holden Badged ) were released and badged by Holden as a Series 2 or Type 2 or Ph 2.etc ? as 1 2 3 4 .. or Letters for that matter i.e. 48-215 to FX etc.
I think we may have got off this post original discussion point on Question of Myths so I think I might start another post with that question....
Jack The Ford Falcon had XW GT-HO XW GT-HO 1 1/2 not officially called that but it got the Cleveland engine in stock trim, no big cam and they sold for 3 months I think. XW GT-HO Phase 2 XY GT-HO Phase 3 There is no such thing as a Phase 1 GT-HO, it's just called a XW GT-HO and it had the Windsor 351 engine.
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maybe we should start up a ford myth post because I've always been under the impression that it went
xt gt phase one
xw gt phase two
xy gt phase three
xa gt phase four? apparently stopped by an inquiry into road deaths and a description as to "any young apprentice carpenter can buy this car and wind up around a tree" was around at the time
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I think you find that the HB was the first mid range update that was specifically called something different. Most updates, until WB are just incorporated into the model as a rolling improvement. Trouble with this is people start calling these rolling improvements series I, II III etc. See this advert, mentions '69 Torana three times. http://www.ebay.com.au/i...15bfe:g:9bcAAOSwe-FU7xYXWarren
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Originally Posted by: KBM maybe we should start up a ford myth post because I've always been under the impression that it went
xt gt phase one
xw gt phase two
xy gt phase three
xa gt phase four? apparently stopped by an inquiry into road deaths and a description as to "any young apprentice carpenter can buy this car and wind up around a tree" was around at the time XR GT 289W XT GT 302W auto and manual XW GT 351W auto and manual 351C later models XW GT-HO 351W XW GT-HO P2 351C XY GT 351C 4V auto and manual XY GT-HO P3 351C XA GT 351C 4V manual and autos originally had 4V but then only 2V heads stock cam from mid 1972. XB GT only 351C with 2V heads and stock cam auto and manual. The Phase 4 is not worth talking about because it was never released to the public, so it never existed as a car anyone could buy. it's like XU-2 Torana no such thing came out to be sold, end of story. The Phase 4 was to have a bit smaller cam 280 deg and lower compression but optional 3.0 diff and with this the media went into a spin with "calculated" top speeds of X. The Phase 2 and 3 have a 300 duration cam but the P2 has the biggest lift and the P3 is tamed down to drive but picks up on power due to carb and extractors, the P4 would of been better to drive but not as much power and I think they would of sold a lot of them, but back in the days tyres were rubbish and you would not want to take a GT-HO to a normal mechanic as they are such ignorant dills that were so lost in the past that they could not comprehend the gravity of such a car that they would of killed many due to there backward attitudes. It was like pulling teeth to explain the benefits of disc brakes at the time.
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Originally Posted by: castellan
XR GT 289W
XT GT 302W auto and manual
XW GT 351W auto and manual 351C later models
XW GT-HO 351W
XW GT-HO P2 351C
XY GT 351C 4V auto and manual
XY GT-HO P3 351C
XA GT 351C 4V manual and autos originally had 4V but then only 2V heads stock cam from mid 1972.
XB GT only 351C with 2V heads and stock cam auto and manual.
The Phase 4 is not worth talking about because it was never released to the public, so it never existed as a car anyone could buy. it's like XU-2 Torana no such thing came out to be sold, end of story.
Without being too pedantic, what about the XW 'Phase 1.5" ? Weren't there about 50 of these things made, basically an early (PH 1) GT-HO with a stock Clevo fitted because they ran out of Windsors & the HO Clevo motors weren't ready yet. Also I believe they made a run of 351 4V (manual only) in XB GT to homologate them for Bathurst. And last but not least, they did build one 'real' Phase 4, the Calypso Green car sold retail by Jack Brabham Ford. I don't really have a problem with calling a car a 'Phase 1' or 'Series 1' retrospectively. What else can you call them after the 2nd series is released ? Dr Terry Edited by user Tuesday, 25 July 2017 12:45:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan
The Phase 4 is not worth talking about because it was never released to the public, so it never existed as a car anyone could buy. it's like XU-2 Torana no such thing came out to be sold, end of story.
An XU-2 Torana was renamed the SL/R5000 just prior to the LH release. The V8 LJ XU-1 that you are referring to is another classic Holden naming myth. Holden never intended calling the LJ V8 the "XU-2". Dr Terry |
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Terry
Did Ford really have to homologate the 4V 351 for XB? GMH homologated the mods allowed to LH and LX from 1977 by the A9X but the L34 engine was already homologated for GroupC hence the 1977-9 Toranas could run an engine with those mods.
I'm not sure how Ford homologated the XA for 1973 as GMH ran the LJ in 1973 under Series Production homologation which was allowed until the end of 1973, Ford may have been the same. But they would have had to homologate the 4V 351 for 1974, which explains the XBs you refer to. I think under Group C that would mean 250 cars though. |
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Originally Posted by: castellan
XR GT 289W
XT GT 302W auto and manual
XW GT 351W auto and manual 351C later models
XW GT-HO 351W
XW GT-HO P2 351C
XY GT 351C 4V auto and manual
XY GT-HO P3 351C
XA GT 351C 4V manual and autos originally had 4V but then only 2V heads stock cam from mid 1972.
XB GT only 351C with 2V heads and stock cam auto and manual.
The Phase 4 is not worth talking about because it was never released to the public, so it never existed as a car anyone could buy. it's like XU-2 Torana no such thing came out to be sold, end of story.
Without being too pedantic, what about the XW 'Phase 1.5" ? Weren't there about 50 of these things made, basically an early (PH 1) GT-HO with a stock Clevo fitted because they ran out of Windsors & the HO Clevo motors weren't ready yet. Also I believe they made a run of 351 4V (manual only) in XB GT to homologate them for Bathurst. And last but not least, they did build one 'real' Phase 4, the Calypso Green car sold retail by Jack Brabham Ford. I don't really have a problem with calling a car a 'Phase 1' or 'Series 1' retrospectively. What else can you call them after the 2nd series is released ? Dr Terry The Phase 1.5 is another naming myth that never was named anything by Ford but that's what they are nick named. they did not run out of 351 Windsor's as the ZC Farlane's got them all the way through the ZC run but for the last month of them went to the Cleveland, all the 351W had a small 4bbl carby of 450CFM. but the Windsor HO engines may of ran out. Ford Australia had to pull the Cleveland's down and put the big cam in and head work for the adjustable rockers etc, maybe orders just had to be filled and they got the stock 351C. Yes they did build some XA P4 but if they did not sell such cars to the general public it's not a production car really worth talking about, because it never came about. A person who has a son named after him becomes X the 2ed etc, one would not call ones self Dr Terry the first now would they and when one who is Dr Terry the 2ed would never call Dr Terry the first now would he, he is just Dr Terry end of story. Hi Dr Terry I am Dr Zachary Smith  but Dr Zachary Smith the 2ed would or could point out that he is the 2ed so as not to miss lead anyone, dare I say what Dr Zachary Smith would truly have to say too that, Indeed !! I think it's what's called the original XW GT-HO, just as truly the first GM Holden is in fact just that.
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Terry
Did Ford really have to homologate the 4V 351 for XB? GMH homologated the mods allowed to LH and LX from 1977 by the A9X but the L34 engine was already homologated for GroupC hence the 1977-9 Toranas could run an engine with those mods.
I'm not sure how Ford homologated the XA for 1973 as GMH ran the LJ in 1973 under Series Production homologation which was allowed until the end of 1973, Ford may have been the same. But they would have had to homologate the 4V 351 for 1974, which explains the XBs you refer to. I think under Group C that would mean 250 cars though. The first lot of XB GT were not the new ADR27 law and that's all.
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I remember now. ADR27 was meant to come in 9/73 but Ford and Chrysler reckoned they couldn't do it and it was delayed until about March 1974 or thereabouts. |
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Originally Posted by: castellan The Phase 1.5 is another naming myth that never was named anything by Ford but that's what they are nick named. they did not run out of 351 Windsor's as the ZC Farlane's got them all the way through the ZC run but for the last month of them went to the Cleveland, all the 351W had a small 4bbl carby of 450CFM. but the Windsor HO engines may of ran out. Ford Australia had to pull the Cleveland's down and put the big cam in and head work for the adjustable rockers etc, maybe orders just had to be filled and they got the stock 351C. Yes they did build some XA P4 but if they did not sell such cars to the general public it's not a production car really worth talking about, because it never came about. A person who has a son named after him becomes X the 2ed etc, one would not call ones self Dr Terry the first now would they and when one who is Dr Terry the 2ed would never call Dr Terry the first now would he, he is just Dr Terry end of story. Hi Dr Terry I am Dr Zachary Smith but Dr Zachary Smith the 2ed would or could point out that he is the 2ed so as not to miss lead anyone, dare I say what Dr Zachary Smith would truly have to say too that, Indeed !! I think it's what's called the original XW GT-HO, just as truly the first GM Holden is in fact just that. I think you may have misunderstood what I said, or perhaps it may have been the way I phrased it. I meant that Ford ran out of Windsor HO motors, not stock Windsors. To my knowledge Ford Aust. only ever built ONE Phase 4. The 3 racecars often shown sitting at the Ford competition workshop at Mahoney's Rd were factory built as GTs & were being converted to HO spec. for racing. Even though there is only one built, the real Phase 4 is still a 'production' car. It's not a custom built, Ford did originally intend built 200 or so. Even though XW 'Phase I' is not its official title, it has been retrospectively named that due to the fact that a Phase II & Phase III were released at a later date. The only other logical name that could be used in perhaps Windsor HO. But you have to call it something more than just a GT-HO because all 3 are GT-HOs. Even though it's not official or even correct, it's a bit like the term FX, even many 'purists' use this. Dr Terry. |
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 I remember now. ADR27 was meant to come in 9/73 but Ford and Chrysler reckoned they couldn't do it and it was delayed until about March 1974 or thereabouts. From what I have seen all the 9/1973 from then on got the PCV on the Falcons and the old breather type were gone. It was easy to do as my dads Feb 1972 built LTD Galaxie had that very same PCV setup.
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Holden had PCV from way earlier. ADR27 sealed the system though. Ford and Chrysler were the reason ADR27 was delayed into 1974. |
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Originally Posted by: castellan The Phase 1.5 is another naming myth that never was named anything by Ford but that's what they are nick named. they did not run out of 351 Windsor's as the ZC Farlane's got them all the way through the ZC run but for the last month of them went to the Cleveland, all the 351W had a small 4bbl carby of 450CFM. but the Windsor HO engines may of ran out. Ford Australia had to pull the Cleveland's down and put the big cam in and head work for the adjustable rockers etc, maybe orders just had to be filled and they got the stock 351C. Yes they did build some XA P4 but if they did not sell such cars to the general public it's not a production car really worth talking about, because it never came about. A person who has a son named after him becomes X the 2ed etc, one would not call ones self Dr Terry the first now would they and when one who is Dr Terry the 2ed would never call Dr Terry the first now would he, he is just Dr Terry end of story. Hi Dr Terry I am Dr Zachary Smith but Dr Zachary Smith the 2ed would or could point out that he is the 2ed so as not to miss lead anyone, dare I say what Dr Zachary Smith would truly have to say too that, Indeed !! I think it's what's called the original XW GT-HO, just as truly the first GM Holden is in fact just that. I think you may have misunderstood what I said, or perhaps it may have been the way I phrased it. I meant that Ford ran out of Windsor HO motors, not stock Windsors. To my knowledge Ford Aust. only ever built ONE Phase 4. The 3 racecars often shown sitting at the Ford competition workshop at Mahoney's Rd were factory built as GTs & were being converted to HO spec. for racing. Even though there is only one built, the real Phase 4 is still a 'production' car. It's not a custom built, Ford did originally intend built 200 or so. Even though XW 'Phase I' is not its official title, it has been retrospectively named that due to the fact that a Phase II & Phase III were released at a later date. The only other logical name that could be used in perhaps Windsor HO. But you have to call it something more than just a GT-HO because all 3 are GT-HOs. Even though it's not official or even correct, it's a bit like the term FX, even many 'purists' use this. Dr Terry. As far as I know the GT-HO Windsor was full import job un touched bar intake manifold job maybe and they may of imported only X amount, the Cleveland started being made in Sep 1969 and we have Cleveland engines coming into Falcons from March 1970 they made 24 GT-HO P 1.5 in March, 86 in Apr, 10 in Jun 1970. XW GT-HO Windsor's are 13 made in July 1969, 197 in Aug, 1 in Sep, 49 in Dec. So that 247 of them HO engines and 1168 351W in XW GT not to mention all the 351W ZC Fairlane's but for about the last month of them. Sure Phase is an incarnation of something originating from the first, but the first is not a Phase. I had attended a speech of our QLD Premier Palazuk, it was at her old Catholic School where she was receiving an award and this fool who just so happened too mention in her words, the first Testament and the second Testament  Blaspheme ! 30 years ago she would of been kicked off the stage directly for saying something that insulting and hell this dill promotes Political Correctness a Satanic doctrine. It's called the Old Testament and the New Testament for good reason, not 1st and 2ed, what is the 3rd PC. 
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Originally Posted by: castellan
Sure Phase is an incarnation of something originating from the first, but the first is not a Phase.
Another term I've seen used is 'Windsor GT-HO' that would please the purists, surely. Dr Terry |
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Probably not the place for it, but what is different between an XW GT engine and an XW GT-HO? With the Clevelands it is easy to see the different US engines we got here based upon US documentation. But not for the Windsor. It looks like when they were released in 1969 there was a 2BBL 250hp engine and a 4BBL 290hp engine, bot SAE gross. I assume the 290hp engine is the XW GT engine? So what was in the GT-HO? The article I have from 1969 says it is a "mystery" engine. Whereas the Clevlands appear to simply be what they got in the USA, ie 2V, 4V (both hydraulic cam) then the 4V Boss, 4V HO and 4V Cobra-Jet. |
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Originally Posted by: castellan
Sure Phase is an incarnation of something originating from the first, but the first is not a Phase.
Another term I've seen used is 'Windsor GT-HO' that would please the purists, surely. Dr Terry I would think so.
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Probably not the place for it, but what is different between an XW GT engine and an XW GT-HO? With the Clevelands it is easy to see the different US engines we got here based upon US documentation. But not for the Windsor. It looks like when they were released in 1969 there was a 2BBL 250hp engine and a 4BBL 290hp engine, bot SAE gross. I assume the 290hp engine is the XW GT engine? So what was in the GT-HO? The article I have from 1969 says it is a "mystery" engine. Whereas the Clevlands appear to simply be what they got in the USA, ie 2V, 4V (both hydraulic cam) then the 4V Boss, 4V HO and 4V Cobra-Jet. XR GT 289 is just a totally built USA engine as is the XT GT 302. The GT-HO 351W was just the same thing but with an alloy intake manifold and a Holley, all came with a bigger cam and high compression better valve springs etc that was the same thing as in the USA. Only our GT-HO Cleveland's have a different cam's to any in USA. One weird thing is that with standard imported 2V Cleveland's Australia claim a higher compression 9.7:1 when the same in the USA is 9.5:1 of the early type, how can this be fact. Australia never got a Boss or HO or Cobra-jet Cleveland engine, it was only 4V and 2V imported.
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Originally Posted by: castellan
Only our GT-HO Cleveland's have a different cam's to any in USA.
Australia never got a Boss or HO or Cobra-jet Cleveland engine, it was only 4V and 2V imported.
That being the case, where were the Phase III, 11.5:1 comp motors built. Were they modified here before fitting to the car ? Dr Terry Edited by user Thursday, 27 July 2017 3:28:10 PM(UTC)
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