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Warren Turnbull Offline
#21 Posted : Saturday, 22 July 2017 5:48:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Series II also goes incorrectly for:

69 HB Torana
VN update engine

Warren


What is the 2ed HB model with the HK stuff and plastic grille called then, HB-2 ? was never officially called a series II or I. but what can ya say ?

Could get away with 1969 HB nowadays because all new cars are born in Sep, but that was never the case in Australia back in them days.


No difference to the 1973 update for HQ.


Actually Byron more like V2 Series I to Series II, massive difference, including dash design, column, indicators, number plate etc.

Holden refer to the "series 2" as 69 model.

HBs had HR trim, then HK trim to "69 model" which has HT trim.

Warren
HK1837 Offline
#22 Posted : Saturday, 22 July 2017 6:06:52 PM(UTC)
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I get that, but it is a mid series update where the current vehicle got updated when a new Holden series was released. Like LH when HJ got released, LX when HZ arrived, HJ when LX arrived etc.
Not a Series II.
HQ 1973 update was pretty significant, even had the new GTS sedan come with it.
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castellan Offline
#23 Posted : Saturday, 22 July 2017 6:47:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I get that, but it is a mid series update where the current vehicle got updated when a new Holden series was released. Like LH when HJ got released, LX when HZ arrived, HJ when LX arrived etc.
Not a Series II.
HQ 1973 update was pretty significant, even had the new GTS sedan come with it.


No significants for much at all that I can think of with the average Kingswood, maybe the late 1973-4 engine ADR air cleaner sticks out as a change that one can see directly.

One could start picking out many things with models, like HZ SL/E Statesman being a big change or when the VB came out all the Holden engines were better, like from then on the 6 cyl got better con-rods, the same rods as the big star fire 4.
HK1837 Offline
#24 Posted : Saturday, 22 July 2017 7:02:15 PM(UTC)
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The significance is the total change in colour and trim. LH saw the HJ 308 engine change but LX saw the massive change in engines with HX.

The HQ 1973 update was far more significant than air cleaners! ADR27 changes were around 1974 model release anyway.

HZ SL/E wasn't a change, just a limited edition.

Some XT5 engine bits ushered in with VB like longer V8 valley bosses, cable. clutch operation, afaik longer water pumps etc. Didn't think the longer rods though, I thought they debuted in Starfire 4 in 1979-ish.

Edited by user Saturday, 22 July 2017 7:04:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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commodorenut Offline
#25 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 7:49:42 AM(UTC)
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VC blue motors were a mix of long & short water pumps, but by VH they were all long.
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HK1837 Offline
#26 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:26:29 AM(UTC)
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Always wondered exactly when that started.
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wbute Offline
#27 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:27:22 AM(UTC)
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I thought this was a myth thread? It seems to be producing a few new ones at the moment, which I guess is appropriate.
castellan Offline
#28 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:36:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
The significance is the total change in colour and trim. LH saw the HJ 308 engine change but LX saw the massive change in engines with HX.

The HQ 1973 update was far more significant than air cleaners! ADR27 changes were around 1974 model release anyway.

HZ SL/E wasn't a change, just a limited edition.

Some XT5 engine bits ushered in with VB like longer V8 valley bosses, cable. clutch operation, afaik longer water pumps etc. Didn't think the longer rods though, I thought they debuted in Starfire 4 in 1979-ish.


Sep 1973 I think ADR was, Ford went the same without the air breather oil cap.

HZ SL/E Statesman was a much better car no more HZ Caprice from then on, she got the sports dash and steering wheel.

I thought that it was the HJ V8 that the longer valley head bolt casting came to be so.

When the starfire came out all 6 cyl got the same stronger rods 1/9/1978 when QL change to ZL & XZL prefix.
HK1837 Offline
#29 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:48:12 AM(UTC)
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Yes 9/73. Start of 1974 model HQ.

SL/E was a limited edition. Sold alongside Caprice. Caprice stopped about the time Statesman production transferred to Elizabeth from Pagewood.

Longer valley bosses if essentially from the start of VB V8 engines.

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#30 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 10:02:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I get that, but it is a mid series update where the current vehicle got updated when a new Holden series was released. Like LH when HJ got released, LX when HZ arrived, HJ when LX arrived etc.
Not a Series II.
HQ 1973 update was pretty significant, even had the new GTS sedan come with it.


HB update/69 model was not in line with another release, unless I am missing a Holden release in September 1968. There was a trim update with HK release in January 1968, which was the HK style trim.

When Updated in September 68, the HB got HT style trims even though the HT was still 9 months from release.

Holden also refer to the two variations (67 and 69)as pre and post energy absorbing column in the parts catalogue.

Warren
Sandaro Offline
#31 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 1:23:34 PM(UTC)
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Not sure if this is a myth or a fact, That early Hk Monaro GTS only available in 5 colours, Irmine White, Silvermink, Bright Blue, Warwick yellow and Piccardy Red?
HK1837 Offline
#32 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 1:29:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Not sure if this is a myth or a fact, That early Hk Monaro GTS only available in 5 colours, Irmine White, Silvermink, Bright Blue, Warwick yellow and Piccardy Red?


Yes, a myth. At release the only colours were Silver Mink, Warwick Yellow, Bright Blue and Picardy Red. There were others ordered, but the stock order colours were those listed.

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HK1837 Offline
#33 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 1:35:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I get that, but it is a mid series update where the current vehicle got updated when a new Holden series was released. Like LH when HJ got released, LX when HZ arrived, HJ when LX arrived etc.
Not a Series II.
HQ 1973 update was pretty significant, even had the new GTS sedan come with it.


HB update/69 model was not in line with another release, unless I am missing a Holden release in September 1968. There was a trim update with HK release in January 1968, which was the HK style trim.

When Updated in September 68, the HB got HT style trims even though the HT was still 9 months from release.

Holden also refer to the two variations (67 and 69)as pre and post energy absorbing column in the parts catalogue.

Warren


Warren

HK trim changed at Monaro and Brougham release or thereabouts didn't it? Isn't this where for example Belmont C and D suffix trims come from? HB changed along with it or close by, or conversely HK trims changed with the HB update if you see it that way. Very similar to LH, it carried on with HQ colours (and maybe trim materials) for a while but changed soon after HJ release. And conversely HJ changed paint and trim to match LX release. It seems pretty normal through this whole period that aside for the luxury Statesman line that Holden and Torana and later Commodore all changed paint and trim to align with each other. WB did it too, with different Commodore series releases.

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Dr Terry Offline
#34 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 5:23:01 PM(UTC)
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Yes, you would have to agree that both the Sept. 68 HB Torana upgrade & the 73 HQ upgrade were worthy of a Series II tag but they didn't get one. GM-H even released all new sales brochures & a new workshop manual for the newer HB.

I was probably responsible for calling the 69 Torana a "Series 2" for my first book back in the 90s, so I'll take he blame. I gave the revised model a separate chapter because it was different in so many areas & was struggling to find a name & called in the "Series 2 HB".

When the Torana update was announced GM-H promoted it as the "1969 Torana". Also it really was a serious upgrade. It gained revised badges (some new some repositioned), new interior trim, new instruments, the addition of a 4-door variant, dual circuit brakes, a new collapsible steering column & steering wheel. Arguably this was more change than the EK had over the FB & it earned a new model series name.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Sunday, 23 July 2017 5:24:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#35 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 5:29:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Not sure if this is a myth or a fact, That early Hk Monaro GTS only available in 5 colours, Irmine White, Silvermink, Bright Blue, Warwick yellow and Piccardy Red?


Yes, a myth. At release the only colours were Silver Mink, Warwick Yellow, Bright Blue and Picardy Red. There were others ordered, but the stock order colours were those listed.



Yes, 4 stock colours for the GTS in 1968, with Ermine White & Inca Gold added for 1969.

DR Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#36 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 5:38:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: commodorenut Go to Quoted Post
VC blue motors were a mix of long & short water pumps, but by VH they were all long.


AFAIK the long water pumps & also revised fan blades were introduced to comply with ADR28A (1/1/81). ADR28A was a limit on engine noise, which required the fan re-design. This & the increased fitment of factory a/cond saw GM-H take the opportunity for the long overdue improvement in the strength of the water pump & bearing.

In typical GM-H fashion these would have been phased into production during late 1980.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Warren Turnbull Offline
#37 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 6:40:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I get that, but it is a mid series update where the current vehicle got updated when a new Holden series was released. Like LH when HJ got released, LX when HZ arrived, HJ when LX arrived etc.
Not a Series II.
HQ 1973 update was pretty significant, even had the new GTS sedan come with it.


HB update/69 model was not in line with another release, unless I am missing a Holden release in September 1968. There was a trim update with HK release in January 1968, which was the HK style trim.

When Updated in September 68, the HB got HT style trims even though the HT was still 9 months from release.

Holden also refer to the two variations (67 and 69)as pre and post energy absorbing column in the parts catalogue.

Warren


Warren

HK trim changed at Monaro and Brougham release or thereabouts didn't it? Isn't this where for example Belmont C and D suffix trims come from? HB changed along with it or close by, or conversely HK trims changed with the HB update if you see it that way. Very similar to LH, it carried on with HQ colours (and maybe trim materials) for a while but changed soon after HJ release. And conversely HJ changed paint and trim to match LX release. It seems pretty normal through this whole period that aside for the luxury Statesman line that Holden and Torana and later Commodore all changed paint and trim to align with each other. WB did it too, with different Commodore series releases.



I have a HB with J102164 PSN with HK style trim. That should make it a January 68 vehicle. (I do have 3 HR trim cars with VINs, but all the rest are HK trim)

Then J135297 with HT style trim. HT style trim is what '69 models get.

So there are three trim versions, 67 HR trim, 67 HK trim, 69 HT trim.

Warren
HK1837 Offline
#38 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 7:26:10 PM(UTC)
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Is the HB "II" really that different though to many others? For example the major HJ update in 1976:

Monaro GTS and LS coupe dropped.
Holden Sandman ute dropped.
3.3L and front discs became standard on most HJ vehicles (2.85L and drum brakes very much restricted to only Holden and Belmont with M15 3spd although you could get a cab-chassis with LD1, M22 and JL2). There were also some special low volume vehicle "packages" available to certain States, mainly for taxi and fleet commercial usage.
New paint colour range (colour chart A626) with mostly new colours.
New trim.
CD4 intermittent wipers becomes standard on many vehicles.
Large restrictions on driveline combinations across the board.



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Warren Turnbull Offline
#39 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:37:26 PM(UTC)
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As Holden announced it as the 1969 model then I would say that it is a significant change. As terry pointed out there were a lot of changes internal and external.

There was a completely new dash design, new steering column and steering wheel, twice as many model variation, ie 3 x 2 doors now 3 x 2 doors and 2 x 4 doors, plus Brabham option which later became a separate model.

There were minor updates to the "67" model including engine, trim, colours etc.

But as Holden had a specific identification for it as the 69 model is why I would have it identified as that. Holden did not do that for other models. Even the advertisements call it '69 Holden Torana.

Edited by user Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:41:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#40 Posted : Sunday, 23 July 2017 8:50:33 PM(UTC)
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Fair call, agree that GMH saw it as different therefore probably right. Still not a SeriesII though! Is this the first time GMH did the whole "model year" change thing that GM normally did? What I mean is for example "1967 Camaro", vs "1968 Camaro"". I know the Camaros in this case had differences but were still pretty much the same thing, like the HB I guess.
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