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coupe Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 7 October 2015 7:14:55 PM(UTC)
coupe

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Hey guys i was just wondering if anyone has any information on the hk hp ratings. Just curious to know if someone has some hp ratings on standard heads and rams horn manifolds. I know from what ive read they were about 210hp with a 2 barrel. Im trying to get around the 300hp or better with some mild work . I wanna keep the standard rams horns but will upgrade to a 4 barrel manifold and correct carb to suit. New cam, larger valves if needed. Are the heads capable with work of making 300hp or better. Have just purchased a 4 speed muncie and ditched the powerglide to grab a bit more hp and a bit more fun. Not trying to build a race car just trying to get the best possible hp. My engine is bored to 60 thou so around 317 cubes. Have access to a flow bench but thought id ask first. Cheers
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#2 Posted : Wednesday, 7 October 2015 8:13:12 PM(UTC)
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They are rated here at 210hp on Super fuel with the 327's dizzy, in the US at 200hp on regular fuel with a very slightly less "aggressive" advance curve.

The 307's heads are essentially the same head as the HK 327 and the cam and distributor and exhaust manifolds are identical.

The best way for me to explain it is by using the 1968 327 as an example. The bottom end on the 210hp, 250hp and 275hp 327's are the same. The 210hp and the 250hp use the same heads, but the 210hp has the 307's manifold and carby. The 250hp and 275hp share the same inlet and carby but the 275hp has Fuellie heads. The higher output 327's use bigger cams and lumpy top pistons.

So with a near standard cam and the stock 307 heads, with a 4BBL and Quadrajet you are going to be limited to around the 240/250hp mark (the 10ci difference won't make much difference). By using a pair of Fuellie heads (64cc 461, 462, 291 will look the part for the 1968 look but the 461 and 462 don't have the boss for the temperature sender) you'll get up near to 275hp. The 275hp 327 is rated at 10:1 but it is closer to 9.8, drop off about 0.1 for about 9.7:1 as a +60 307 rather than 4" bore. So the compression ratio will be close to a stock HJ 308. Going for a better cam and alloy manifold with a proper tune will probably see you closer to your 300hp goal. You could also use some aftermarket heads, or later 64cc style like 041, 186 or even the later slant plug style or Dart Iron heads if you aren't worried about it looking stock.

A HK dual exhaust will help heaps as well.

I just bought off Ebay (arrived yesterday) a pair of 1968 Quadrajets for 327/250, 327/275 and 350/295 - one is a Rochester Quadrajet 7028212 DH (auto) and the other is a Carter Quadrajet 7028213 DY (manual). These are the same carby as we got on the 1968 Pontiac/Impala and the HK GTS327 except ours were ordered pre 9/67 so we got 70272xx. They are also the same spec carbs as we got on HT-HG GTS350 except they came as 3 and 4 on the end rather than 2 and 3 as 1 and 2 were used for HT 308.

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coupe Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 8:55:20 AM(UTC)
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Wow thanks for all that info. I have access to some 3782461 hump heads. My 307 ones need reco anyway so i was wondering how much hp these flow stock. I know they dont have the boss for the temp sender but ill sort that. They want 200 big ones.
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#4 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 9:27:13 AM(UTC)
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$200 is cheap for 461's. What they flow depends upon the 461 casting, there are a few types. Also if they have 2.02" inlet valves or 1.94". You don't want 2.02 on a 307 or even on a 327 really unless it is a race engine. The 461 casting is the one that comes in both 165cc and 172cc inlet runners, I think the bigger ones have 461X cast into them.

The normal 1.94 461's with a Edelbrock Performer, correctly setup ignition, a well tuned Quadrajet and a good exhaust will see you not far from 300hp (maybe 275-290?). You'll probably see about 170-200hp at the rear wheels but will depend upon the dyno. If you want more you are going to have to look at a better set of heads, more compression and cam which is what the 300hp - 375hp 327's had in the 60's but you will also have to think about the durability of the bottom end (rods, bolts etc). If you plan to go down that path i'd keep the 307 aside and go and find a 4 bolt 350 block (these can be had cheap on Ebay), a used 307/327 crank and build up a new motor using Vortec or aftermarket heads. I picked up a 4 bolt 1969 388 cast 4" short STD bore not long ago off Ebay for $250. Same block as a HT GTS350M but this one was out of a C10 truck.
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coupe Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 10:31:48 AM(UTC)
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Is there a big difference between the 461 and 3911032 standard 307 head?
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#6 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 11:29:36 AM(UTC)
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Yes. 25hp. 032 heads are The McKinnon Industries version of the 290 head on the 250hp 327. The only difference between the 250hp and 275hp 327 is the heads, the 327/275 has 291 heads which are the same head as a 461/462 but with the sender hole.
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gm5735 Offline
#7 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 12:15:32 PM(UTC)
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I think the 032 heads are 70cc chambers, while the 461s are 64cc.
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#8 Posted : Thursday, 8 October 2015 12:51:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gm5735 Go to Quoted Post
I think the 032 heads are 70cc chambers, while the 461s are 64cc.


Correct. And the 032 ports are 142cc and 59cc respectively vs the 165cc and 65cc for the standard 461, or 172cc and 65cc for the 461X.
The 461 also has 1.94" inlet valves vs the 1.72" on the 032. Some 461's have 2.02" and 1.6" valves.

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coupe Offline
#9 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 10:32:41 AM(UTC)
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So the 461 are a 64 cc chamber? The only info i had on them was they were 60cc which was gonna give me too much compression. I thought with all those differences with the 461 head that there would be more then 25 hp on offer.
coupe Offline
#10 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 10:36:01 AM(UTC)
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Which would work better with the factory 2 barrel? Just for curiosity.
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#11 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 11:01:18 AM(UTC)
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There are some variations from memory in 461, a 60cc chamber on 307 would probably see 10.25:1.

25hp is the difference between L73 327 and L30 327, the only difference is L73 has a 290 head (same as 032) and L30 has a Fuellie head. L73 is our HK 327.

My mate used to have a 307 in a HQ tonner. It was bored to 4" (327) and had 461's on it. It had an M21 4spd in it, was a powerhouse. I think it had a mild cam and Holley on alloy manifold. It was probably 280hp or so. He also had another 307 in his HK GTS. It was bored to 4.040", ran a big solid cam, same 461 heads (later replaced with std alloy Corvette heads as it ran too hot), Victor Junior and 750DP plus big Pacemakers.. With a toploader (smashed about 5 of those) and 3,7 gears it used to run 13.0 flat on street tar (Manilla Sprints). With its mph figure we figured it had around 400hp.
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coupe Offline
#12 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 11:26:20 AM(UTC)
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The problem with my build is i want to run the standard exhaust manifold with some light port work. If i can open them up to 2 and a quarter inch i maybe able to get the 300hp. Dont know which way to go. My 307 2 barrel engine is complete right down to factory air cleaner. Have to do some hard thinking. Only trying for 300hp but limiting myself to period items.
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#13 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 11:59:34 AM(UTC)
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You could try the Corvette rams-horn exhaust manifolds. They have a larger bore exit, something like 2.25" from memory.

They look original & flow very well.

Dr Terry
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gm5735 Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 12:25:02 PM(UTC)
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The higher power Corvette 327 manifolds were 2-1/2" I think. There are pretty good reproductions available from Dorman.
If they are much wider than the standard ones you may have an issue with clearance to the steering box on HK.
They also won't do the best they can unless you go to a 2-1/2" exhaust system all the way to the back.
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#15 Posted : Friday, 9 October 2015 3:15:40 PM(UTC)
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You'll find the higher output hydraulic camshaft SBC's (327/275 and 350/300) with rams horns were still 2" on full size Chevy and Camaro - it was the main system and tailpipe that was bigger (2.25") on L48 (350/300) with dual exhaust single muffler (like a HK-HG 350). Even the 1971 Z28 LT1 Camaro had the same system but used log style manifolds - the Corvette had rams horns for an extra 10hp. So you'll easily get 300hp out of a standard style HK GTS 327 system with the right engine but you have no chance with a stock 307 intake and carb. The only difference between a 210hp 327 and a 250hp 327 in 1968 was the 210hp had the 307's intake and carby, and the 250hp had the 275hp 4BBL intake and carby.

If I was you i'd get it all working with the 307 and then build another engine out of period bits if you like, and keep the complete 307 aside.

Here is a cheap block, no idea on its condition: http://www.ebay.com.au/i...106?hash=item25af1c3fda

Here is a 1970 250hp (2 bolt) auto block: http://www.ebay.com.au/i...819?hash=item1ea540d2eb

I regularly see HK-HT 4BBL inlet manifolds on Ebay and no-one bids on them.

And you'll buy a 307 for next to nothing too for the crankshaft to put in the 350 block to make a 327.
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#16 Posted : Sunday, 11 October 2015 8:27:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: coupe Go to Quoted Post
The problem with my build is i want to run the standard exhaust manifold with some light port work. If i can open them up to 2 and a quarter inch i maybe able to get the 300hp. Dont know which way to go. My 307 2 barrel engine is complete right down to factory air cleaner. Have to do some hard thinking. Only trying for 300hp but limiting myself to period items.


Could maybe find a bit bigger 2 barrel carby that looks the same as your original and go 2 inch from manifolds and then connecting into a mandrel 2 1/4 with free flow muffler or go 2 1/2 from the connection.

I don't know about the 2 barrel Rochester carbys and all their sizes, but I know Ford have a hell of a lot of different size CFM 2 barrel options around, as I would think so do the Chevys.

If you find a bigger CFM one, you could open up the intake manifold body by grinding it bigger to suit the bigger CFM.

Just remember that 2 barrels CFM ratings are different to how the 4 barrels CFM rating are setup, a 500 CFM 2 barrel can make more power than a 500 CFM 4 barrel.

All this magic 300 HP figure is B/S it's all about performance how it performs, as two engines could make say 300 HP, but one performs much better than the other through the rev range.
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#17 Posted : Sunday, 11 October 2015 10:05:09 AM(UTC)
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There is a bigger 2BBL carby as used on the 1969 235hp 327 and the 1969 onwards L65 245hp 350. The bigger 2BBL carb raises the 1969 210hp 327 (with 307's carb and inlet) to 235hp. Same carby drops the 1969 LM1 from about 275hp (GM under-rated this engine deliberately at 255hp but GMH gave it 275hp in the HT-HG GTS350 auto) to 245hp. So either 2BBL will limit compared to a Quadrajet. The bigger carb is noriceable though. I'd just run a Quadrajet.
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coupe Offline
#18 Posted : Sunday, 11 October 2015 2:49:25 PM(UTC)
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Thanks guys
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