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HK1837 Offline
#21 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 11:47:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure the 308 3 speed would have hit the performance goals needed for success in production car racing in a Monaro body, LC Torana yes but not HG. Really the 308 needed to be factory stroked to say 340CI to 360CI and the cyninder heads revised to include a 2.00in intake valve and 1.6 ex valve plus valve timing revisions so peak power arrived at 4800 to 5100RPM with the stroker.
I think the 3 speed would have been too wide between gears for a 5.0L in a HG Monaro body, even with the HT only 2.5 1st gear ratio.

Harry Firth was a Wonder for GM and did a lot for the brand over the decade or so but this exercise would have been difficult I feel.

The LT1 would have been great but as we know GM takes small steps so the hydraulic lifter Qjet fed L46 would have been seamless for dealership servicing and warranty pleasing.

ABI


I doubt if it was built that Harry's 3spd Saginaw would have been used. BUT it was possible as the 3spd Saginaw was standard fitment in LH Torana. The Saginaw 3spd would simply use a HT-HG V8 4spd shifter and mount without the reverse gate. Harry always said once they were racing they only needed two gears! The 308 was fine in these, the idea behind the 2.55 rear axle was to keep the revs below 6000rpm as revs (thus rods) were the 308's weak point until 1974. The wide ratio Saginaw was to get it off the line.

in the end it was canned as this HG was aimed at Bathurst 1971, but there was no point as the HG coupe would be finished well before Bathurst 1971.

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abi Offline
#22 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 11:51:52 AM(UTC)
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As far as I'm aware some CKD HK-HG run 4.75" PCD wheels, they must have made some Chevrolet wheels locally (where assembled) for use on then to increase local content. Some of the rotors have turned up over the years that are HK-HG but with 4.75" PCD. We think this is what was on the 1969 Woelders HT, Harry told Bondy the wheels wouldn't fit his car but this never made sense until we found the 4.75" PCD HT/G rotors.

HK, Some of the info like this is priceless and deserves more than a mention in a forum in my opinion, I do hope I will some day read this and more in print all together somewhere.

I'm guessing the US brake package would bolt on to HK stubs, the rotors would but the calipers maybe not.

I suspect Girling or later Girlock ran all the R+D in the lat 60's for Holden. The spaced out calipers is an old trick Girling were doing to all the larger systems for other mostly UK makers eg Austin Heally some years before applying it to the 69 350 manuals here in Australia.
ABI
HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 11:57:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Well Ford have the Raptor yet to hit the MOUNTAIN!!

Apparently Engineered & developed by Ford here in Aussie...


Yep, all 2.0L of it! I cannot believe how nancy the Australian vehicle market has gone where a Company makes a big song and dance about producing a mardi-gras float with a 2.0T TD engine and people will buy it. I just shake my head sometimes.....



I laughed when i read it too....Apparently the twin Turbo 2.0 litre outperforms or equals their 3.2 5 cylinder,weighs less and uses less fuel with a 10 speed gearbox.
More responsive down low. The 3.2's are 147kW 470Nm.

Not sure if we (Aussie)get the 3.5-liter twin-turbo EcoBoost V-6 would make 450 horsepower and 510 lb-ft of torque/336kW of power and 690Nm of torque.

Estimated value over $80,000.

I own a current Ranger and am toying with putting chip in it...The 3.0 Navara I chipped and it made it dangerous.



My 4.0L Hilux has around 330hp/250kW (flywheel) and 440lb-ft/600nm (at back wheels) and probably is the minimum you'd want in one of these for NSW country roads towing. Bit more boost (only has 6.5psi) and lift the rev limit and it'd push 300kW. Is a breeze for everyday driving and makes it easy to lug around 2tonnes on the highway, effortless and safe overtaking (to get around the mobile road block diesel dual cabs towing vans that can't manage much more 80km/h up hills like those between Scone and Tamworth). So i'd love it if they put that 3.5L supercharged V6 in the Ranger but my guess is they won't, they want to keep force feeding us baby diesel junk. Nissan have announced in the last few weeks that they are going to bring the Titan here, it at least comes with a 5.0L V8 diesel and hopefully the Patrol's 5.6L V8 petrol too!



Agreed HK....I think some of these old boys are ex Biro Pilots that retire , grab the cheap 4x4 and van and are shite scared of putting their foot in it for the fear of using fuel and lack of ability....We won't get the V6 ....its all about fuel saving here...Yet I did see yesterday two Toyota Tundra's outside Toyota in Beauie...Now thats what I am on next...Dancing One was red...It looked magnificent.
Ok....so the Patrol is for a come back....My son inlaw have them in the Force and they DYMO'd "SLUG" on the dash.Good it needs a V8...bloody 4's were useless in them.


Could be, but stick a 3000kg van on the back of a pi$$ant little diesel like even the larger 3.2L Ranger which is bigger than most, and drag it up one of the hills between Willow Tree and Armidale in NSW. Good luck! By the time you hit the top of some of them you'll be doing 60 and have cooked the transmission unless you manually knock it back to 2nd or 3rd gear! I've even got stuck behind B-doubles in the overtaking lane as they are trying to get past the damn slow Ranger/Hilux/Prado/Patrol3.0 or whatever slug is towing the van. I can tow a WB van on my car trailer up the Liverpool Range north/west of Murrurundi or the Moonbi Hills north of Tamworth and stay on the speed limit, will go 20-30 over it if I let it.
Patrols have a 5.6L Hemi V8 in them now, have for a few years no. Same petrol engine that the Nissan Titan gets in the USA. You can get that Tundra driveline if you want it - in a Lexus LX570 wagon.

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abi Offline
#24 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 12:08:52 PM(UTC)
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I agree the the LC XU1 with the 160HP engine should have been a class leader at Bathurst 69 and Monaro 350 for outright.

Those Ph 2 HO's ran virtually stock Cleveland motors due to only being released in the US 12 months prior and at the time were untested here and in the US in competition. The bearing journals were too big and the surface speeds were thus too high in combination with a poor oiling system and poor sump design meant they limped around Bathurst in 1970 trying to make it to the end without a blow-up.
I worked in an engine reco shop in the late 80's and we worked on a lot of Clevos, and Big Block chevs. Lifting these two engines blocks and heads around the shop I always thought, 'wow, the Clevelands are missing 100 cubic inches'

ABI
HK1837 Offline
#25 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 12:09:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
As far as I'm aware some CKD HK-HG run 4.75" PCD wheels, they must have made some Chevrolet wheels locally (where assembled) for use on then to increase local content. Some of the rotors have turned up over the years that are HK-HG but with 4.75" PCD. We think this is what was on the 1969 Woelders HT, Harry told Bondy the wheels wouldn't fit his car but this never made sense until we found the 4.75" PCD HT/G rotors.

HK, Some of the info like this is priceless and deserves more than a mention in a forum in my opinion, I do hope I will some day read this and more in print all together somewhere.

I'm guessing the US brake package would bolt on to HK stubs, the rotors would but the calipers maybe not.

I suspect Girling or later Girlock ran all the R+D in the lat 60's for Holden. The spaced out calipers is an old trick Girling were doing to all the larger systems for other mostly UK makers eg Austin Heally some years before applying it to the 69 350 manuals here in Australia.
ABI


Don't worry, almost all of what I have said here will be in or alluded to in another's book due out I think this year.

Not sure about the US brakes. I know the Corvette 1.125" master cylinder bolts straight to a HK-WB booster, and most of the ball joints on HQ and Torana are the same as US cars. HK-HJ stubs are the same, and those fit on HD-HR too IIRC. My guess is GMH had to do some work on the HQ to fit the HK-HG stubs, like they had to do to make the banjo work and also the HK-HG rear brakes on HQ. We think the HQ Salisbury is the original diff that was designed for the HQ when it was a US vehicle.

GMH probably approached Girlock or PBR and said "design this". Ford probably did the same, just look at Ford calipers (front and rear) and how close they are to HQ-HZ. Same with the power steering boxes. Not sure which one is chicken and which is egg but clearly the same basic design is applied to both.

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HK1837 Offline
#26 Posted : Friday, 2 March 2018 12:25:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
I agree the the LC XU1 with the 160HP engine should have been a class leader at Bathurst 69 and Monaro 350 for outright.

Those Ph 2 HO's ran virtually stock Cleveland motors due to only being released in the US 12 months prior and at the time were untested here and in the US in competition. The bearing journals were too big and the surface speeds were thus too high in combination with a poor oiling system and poor sump design meant they limped around Bathurst in 1970 trying to make it to the end without a blow-up.
I worked in an engine reco shop in the late 80's and we worked on a lot of Clevos, and Big Block chevs. Lifting these two engines blocks and heads around the shop I always thought, 'wow, the Clevelands are missing 100 cubic inches'

ABI


Bunkie Knudsen left GM to become Ford's President in early 1968. He took some Engineers with him and they developed the Cleveland before his dismissal late in 1969. This is why the Cleveland is like a MarkIV BBC - the heads are really a direct copy.

As for size remember the original MarkI BBC's were 348 and 409ci. The Cleveland was 351ci and 400ci. It wasn't until later in MarkI and in MarkII they grew to 427 then also in MarkIV and beyond became 366, 396, 402, 427, 454 and 496 plus the GM parts 502 and 572.

Edited by user Friday, 2 March 2018 12:26:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Premier 350 Offline
#27 Posted : Saturday, 3 March 2018 8:04:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
I think Holden should have done a 200 car run of L46 powered HG's for the 70 race. M20 Muncie and 12 Bolt to stay within GM Engineering guidlines. The front rotor mass or heat sink as well as the pad area would have still been an issue though.
ABI


Agree, the GM parts bins was there to be raided. As mentioned above, the vented discs were there, with either 4 or single piston calipers. Hell, let's use the '69 Camaro optional (and very rare) rear discs too. Wheel clearance might have been an issue, so lets go to Chevrolet 15" rally wheels while we're there.
Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
HK1837 Offline
#28 Posted : Saturday, 3 March 2018 9:41:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Premier 350 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
I think Holden should have done a 200 car run of L46 powered HG's for the 70 race. M20 Muncie and 12 Bolt to stay within GM Engineering guidlines. The front rotor mass or heat sink as well as the pad area would have still been an issue though.
ABI


Agree, the GM parts bins was there to be raided. As mentioned above, the vented discs were there, with either 4 or single piston calipers. Hell, let's use the '69 Camaro optional (and very rare) rear discs too. Wheel clearance might have been an issue, so lets go to Chevrolet 15" rally wheels while we're there.


They couldn't use 15" rims as there was no tyres for them with the right size (diameter) and speed rating, and they didn't probably have 14" HQ rims available yet which are the wrong offset. Remember local content was very important, there wasn't even a 14" tyre made in Australia suitable for the GTS327. GMH had to get them specially made by a local manufacturer as a special "high speed H" as H was the highest rated 14" tyre available at the time. There is as far as I know no such thing as a high speed H anymore, and try buying a V rated tyre the right size for a 14" HK-HG 81837, this is why i'm using 15" rims as leally you cannot run a H on a GTS327 or GTS350, the H speed rating is too low. I don't think the optional Michelin XAS on a HK GTS327 (that were used to win Bathurst in 1968 and 19699) that you can buy in a repro now is higher speed rated than H.

When you work out the overall ratios too, the HK GTS327's came in a mix or 3.36 and 3.08. The 3.36 with the DR70H14 tyres is close to the same overall ratio as the US Camaros with 15" tyres and 3.73:1 rear axle. If GMH had decided to import and run Pontiac or Chevrolet 15" rims and US 15" cross plies they would also have had to put 12 bolt rear axles in them with 3.73:1 ratios, or at least the 10 bolt with the 3.55 rear axle. As it was if you optioned a GTS327 or GTS350 with a 12 bolt you had to pay about 1/3 of the cost of the car on top again to get it. And they would probably also have had to stock 15" tyres at dealerships and there were none available in Australia, at least not in the right speed rating.

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griffo Offline
#29 Posted : Tuesday, 6 March 2018 8:47:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Well Ford have the Raptor yet to hit the MOUNTAIN!!

Apparently Engineered & developed by Ford here in Aussie...


Yep, all 2.0L of it! I cannot believe how nancy the Australian vehicle market has gone where a Company makes a big song and dance about producing a mardi-gras float with a 2.0T TD engine and people will buy it. I just shake my head sometimes.....



I laughed when i read it too....Apparently the twin Turbo 2.0 litre outperforms or equals their 3.2 5 cylinder,weighs less and uses less fuel with a 10 speed gearbox.
More responsive down low. The 3.2's are 147kW 470Nm.

Not sure if we (Aussie)get the 3.5-liter twin-turbo EcoBoost V-6 would make 450 horsepower and 510 lb-ft of torque/336kW of power and 690Nm of torque.

Estimated value over $80,000.

I own a current Ranger and am toying with putting chip in it...The 3.0 Navara I chipped and it made it dangerous.



My 4.0L Hilux has around 330hp/250kW (flywheel) and 440lb-ft/600nm (at back wheels) and probably is the minimum you'd want in one of these for NSW country roads towing. Bit more boost (only has 6.5psi) and lift the rev limit and it'd push 300kW. Is a breeze for everyday driving and makes it easy to lug around 2tonnes on the highway, effortless and safe overtaking (to get around the mobile road block diesel dual cabs towing vans that can't manage much more 80km/h up hills like those between Scone and Tamworth). So i'd love it if they put that 3.5L supercharged V6 in the Ranger but my guess is they won't, they want to keep force feeding us baby diesel junk. Nissan have announced in the last few weeks that they are going to bring the Titan here, it at least comes with a 5.0L V8 diesel and hopefully the Patrol's 5.6L V8 petrol too!



Agreed HK....I think some of these old boys are ex Biro Pilots that retire , grab the cheap 4x4 and van and are shite scared of putting their foot in it for the fear of using fuel and lack of ability....We won't get the V6 ....its all about fuel saving here...Yet I did see yesterday two Toyota Tundra's outside Toyota in Beauie...Now thats what I am on next...Dancing One was red...It looked magnificent.
Ok....so the Patrol is for a come back....My son inlaw have them in the Force and they DYMO'd "SLUG" on the dash.Good it needs a V8...bloody 4's were useless in them.


Could be, but stick a 3000kg van on the back of a pi$$ant little diesel like even the larger 3.2L Ranger which is bigger than most, and drag it up one of the hills between Willow Tree and Armidale in NSW. Good luck! By the time you hit the top of some of them you'll be doing 60 and have cooked the transmission unless you manually knock it back to 2nd or 3rd gear! I've even got stuck behind B-doubles in the overtaking lane as they are trying to get past the damn slow Ranger/Hilux/Prado/Patrol3.0 or whatever slug is towing the van. I can tow a WB van on my car trailer up the Liverpool Range north/west of Murrurundi or the Moonbi Hills north of Tamworth and stay on the speed limit, will go 20-30 over it if I let it.
Patrols have a 5.6L Hemi V8 in them now, have for a few years no. Same petrol engine that the Nissan Titan gets in the USA. You can get that Tundra driveline if you want it - in a Lexus LX570 wagon.


Missed this post ol soldier...YES I have done that leg of the highway, actually been up and down the Moonbi Range all my life...We had land way out west and on the coast ol mate with all type of vehicles...My Ranger eats it and Cunninghams Gap ect ect(maybe its a one off)...There are 3.2 and 2.0 Donks in them ol cock...(Time for a Tundra now its 12 months old) But as I said before there are drivers and drivers....To drive a diesel is not like driving a petrol,some of these old codgers could not drive a nail into a cake of soap LOL.
And Patrol do no put a v8 in a farmers cab cassis...".After God said they do" I made a real cock of my self at Zupps asking for one."
Thx ol mate I thought you were my buddy.

Edited by user Tuesday, 6 March 2018 8:51:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: edit

HK1837 Offline
#30 Posted : Tuesday, 6 March 2018 9:02:40 PM(UTC)
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I meant the Patrol wagon gets the same V8 as the Titan. They’ve stuck with that 3.0L hand grenade and manual only in the ute.

Rangers go well for what they are, but they are still woefully underpowered for their claimed towing capacity and vehicle size, plus unless you have an aftermarket transmission cooler you’ll have black fluid towing even 2500kg up hills like those! The factory cooler is woefully inadequate. For a Ranger sized vehicle to be towing around 2700kg (which is its real towing capacity (with vehicle at GVW)) it really should have an engine like the 200 or 79 Series ‘cruiser. The Titan with a 5.0L V8 TD is not that much bigger dimension wise than a Ranger, and the Ranger dwarfs a 200 Series in wheelbase and length. Both the 200 and the Titan are far heavier though due to the heavier duty nature of them.

Edited by user Tuesday, 6 March 2018 9:09:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Silverfox Offline
#31 Posted : Wednesday, 7 March 2018 8:13:03 PM(UTC)
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Hi All.

I have a Patrol which is somewhat unknown. It has been effectively crucified by dickhead valuers in car yards who don't know one end of a car from another. The very first thing they say a trade in valuation time is "Oh no...not very interested that is the 4.8 Petrol it's a guzzler"

There is more to owning a vehicle than simple thirst. Dealers use that as a weapon in their favour.

Yes they do like a drink....but Jeezuz what a unit!. I bought my Manual 4.8 wagon in 2004 and it has now covered 230,000ks. It has been completely reliable with minimal out of the ordinary repairs. Pulls like a young bloke with a copy of Playboy. ....and is roomy, quiet and comfortable.

It was the ONLY vehicle in its class with a 3.5 ton tow rating. It has been all over the country with my treasures inside my 40 foot long enclosed trailer which when loaded sits bang on three and a half tons.

Over the years I have looked to replace it but I just cannot find anything like it. Yes I can go up to a Tundra size which for me is too big and won't fit in my garage. Going down into the Ranger/Hilux class is a step backwards. They are simply not built like a Patrol or Cruiser.The 4.8 Patrol engine is a super sweet twin OHC variable timing BIG six which I feel is one of the great sixes on the planet.

I have had plenty to do with Common rail diesel stuff but it is just not in the same league. Lots of P.S.I with injection pressures of up to 50000PSI is a formula for expensive failure. I also run a 2ltr Merc Sprinter and when it is running is nice.It is amazing that a 2 litre diesel can run with a 4.5 ton gvm. But whenever something goes wrong it costs thousands. Same goes for all of the engines in the class below the Patrol/Cruiser. They try to be in the class above but at the end of the day they are a small common rail diesel with a LOT of boost.

"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
HK1837 Offline
#32 Posted : Wednesday, 7 March 2018 8:59:24 PM(UTC)
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They are good Nick. One of those was my starting point for a donor chassis for a VE/F ute body to sit on. The only hitch I found was the GVW is a bit low. They can tow 3500kg but the GCM is only 6550kg. With a Kerb weight of 2480kg it only leaves 570kg for everything, which includes towbar, towball weight, people, luggage etc. With a 3500kg trailer you have around 350kg towball, plus say 70kg of towbar. That is only 150kg left for you and anything else in or on the car! Why I did these sums is a VE SS ute minus the front suspension, wheels, rear suspension and diff and tailshaft weighs about 1500kg. Add the GU chassis, diffs, wheels, steering, tailshafts, transfer, fuel tank plus adaption stuff and whatever other stuff added like canopy, etc makes the whole thing weigh more than the original Patrol! Thus there is bugger all carrying capacity until you reach the original GVW which you must stick to.

I agree with your sentiments BTW regarding how bulletproof the petrol engines are in these and Toyotas. The diesels used to be too. A new Patrol wagon willl do what yours does with that sweet 5.6L V8 engine in it. Not the prettiest of cars though.
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#33 Posted : Thursday, 8 March 2018 10:31:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I meant the Patrol wagon gets the same V8 as the Titan. They’ve stuck with that 3.0L hand grenade and manual only in the ute.

Rangers go well for what they are, but they are still woefully underpowered for their claimed towing capacity and vehicle size, plus unless you have an aftermarket transmission cooler you’ll have black fluid towing even 2500kg up hills like those! The factory cooler is woefully inadequate. For a Ranger sized vehicle to be towing around 2700kg (which is its real towing capacity (with vehicle at GVW)) it really should have an engine like the 200 or 79 Series ‘cruiser. The Titan with a 5.0L V8 TD is not that much bigger dimension wise than a Ranger, and the Ranger dwarfs a 200 Series in wheelbase and length. Both the 200 and the Titan are far heavier though due to the heavier duty nature of them.


NISSAN
PATROL
CAB CHASSIS
Thank you for expressing interest in the Nissan Patrol Cab Chassis.
Unfortunately the Nissan Patrol Cab Chassis is no longer available for sale in Australia.

If you’re looking for a ute that is fit for work and the weekend, look no further than the Nissan Navara range.


Thats from the NISSAN site.
As I said Ol mate ...I made a real cock of myself asking for one because you told me they still sold them and a V8 to boot.

Where can I buy a new Nissan 3.0L hand grenade?

Edited by user Thursday, 8 March 2018 10:34:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#34 Posted : Friday, 9 March 2018 5:46:49 AM(UTC)
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I never said they sold a Patrol cab-chassis with a V8, if they sold that I would probably own one! My initial comment was the Titan which Nissan are reported to be bring to Australia hopefully comes here with the Patrol's 5.6L V8. Here is a Patrol with that engine: https://www.carsales.com...8/OAG-AD-15602112/?Cr=0

Here is a new 3.0L Patrol cab-chassis. As I said Nissan stuck with that engine in the cab-chassis: https://www.carsales.com...6/SSE-AD-5009892/?Cr=1. I asked a dealer a few years back why they didn't put the V8 in the cab-chassis, the response was no-one would buy them. Looks like the 3.0L ones sold so well they have discontinued those.
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#35 Posted : Friday, 9 March 2018 1:32:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Here is a new 3.0L Patrol cab-chassis. As I said Nissan stuck with that engine in the cab-chassis: https://www.carsales.com...6/SSE-AD-5009892/?Cr=1. I asked a dealer a few years back why they didn't put the V8 in the cab-chassis, the response was no-one would buy them. Looks like the 3.0L ones sold so well they have discontinued those.


It will only be a matter of time before someone leaves in a shed for a year and scream 'barn find'BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin

There is seems to a like it or hate it opinion on the 3.0 litre Patrol.. a quick google shows people who want to convert back to the TD42.
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#36 Posted : Friday, 9 March 2018 3:01:01 PM(UTC)
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I’m surprised you found anyone who likes that engine! Most people seem to hate them. They do make a cheap low km vehicle to buy and convert to GM V8 diesel or petrol though as the engines are often shagged by 100,000km.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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